Ian Faison & Julie Liegl & Lauren Vaccarello & Karin Flores

Demand Gen Visionaries Live 2022


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(upbeat music)

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Hello, this is Ian Phason, CEO of Casparin Studios.

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And this week we have a special edition

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of Demand Gen Visionaries Live from Dreamforce.

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This is never before seen footage.

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We were live at Dreamforce with three of our best pals,

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Julie, Lauren, and Karen.

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We were talking marketing.

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We were talking to uncuttable budget items.

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These are three of the ladies that help build Dreamforce.

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So we talked a bunch about events,

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some inspiring stories,

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some ways that they're thinking about spending money

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in this sort of new economy.

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And with all of the turmoil and things that are going on

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in the market, it's no better time to think about

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how you're investing, where you're gonna be investing,

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and these three ladies know exactly how to do it.

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So yeah, it's a wonderful conversation.

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I hope you all enjoy it.

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As always, if you have any feedback,

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if you have any thoughts, if you have any questions,

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you can hit us up anytime.

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You can find me on LinkedIn, @adianphason,

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or on Twitter @adianphason if you ever have any questions.

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Would love to answer those.

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And we can get them back to Julie, Lauren, and Karen

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if you have some follow-ups as well.

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So as always, thanks again for listening

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and thanks to our presenting sponsor, Qualified.

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We love them dearly.

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It was so awesome being at an event

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with so many Qualified customers,

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Caspian customers hanging out, dancing,

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singing all of that stuff.

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The event was so hot that the fire alarm actually went off.

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And so we had to cool it down with some adult beverages,

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but it was a wonderful time.

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We hope to do more DGV lives in the future,

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and we can't wait for every single one of you

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to meet us at one of those.

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So thanks again for listening, and hope you enjoy.

1:51

- Okay, hello everyone, welcome to DemandGen Visionaries Live

1:56

at Dreamforce.

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It is so fun to be back together after two years

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of not being together.

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Love your participation, you're ready to go.

2:08

My name's Mora, I'm the CMO here at Qualified.

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Thank you guys so much for joining us.

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We launched this show about three years ago.

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We wanted to spotlight the best and brightest CMOs

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in the industry.

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And today we bring you the show live.

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So we have an all-star lineup,

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and these are the legends that built Dreamforce.

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These are the women who helped build

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the best marketing event of the year.

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So we have Karen Flores, VP of Events at Okta,

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Julie Legal, former CMO of Slack,

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Lauren Vaccarello, CMO of Salesloft,

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and our host Ian Faison.

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So thank you guys for joining us with that.

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Let's start the show.

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And let's say a toast to Dreamforce.

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Here's to all of us, we'd back together.

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And here's to us having an amazing conversation

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and taking off a great event.

2:57

So thank you guys for joining us.

2:59

(cheering)

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- Welcome to Demand Gen Visionaries.

3:10

I'm Ian Faison, CEO of Caspian Studios.

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And today I'm joined by three special guests.

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Ladies, how are you?

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- Hello, very good.

3:19

So you'll notice that most of the folks

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have a keeper-cut panel in front of you.

3:25

So what we're gonna do is a little analog version

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of uncuttable budget items.

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So we do this as a segment in our podcast to say,

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hey, CMOs, what are your three most uncuttable budget items?

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And so today we're gonna rip through

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a bunch of uncuttable budget items.

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And we want like, if you're like,

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"Hey, that's something we're gonna keep.

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Hey, this is something we're not gonna keep,"

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you can kind of use those.

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And if you're like in between, you can just kind of go in between.

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So to start off, I think as we have,

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you're at 100 episodes of Demand Gen Visionaries,

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which is pretty crazy.

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And what we've heard a lot of is sort of,

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from the very beginning of COVID through to now,

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that uncuttable budget items have changed,

4:12

how you track ROI has changed,

4:15

and what are the types of things you're spending money on

4:17

has changed.

4:18

And we've been hearing basically this sort of

4:23

kind of up and down roller coaster

4:25

of how do you think about marketing?

4:27

And what we wanted to talk about today

4:31

is sort of this idea that,

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obviously we live in very uncertain times,

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they're sort of the market is tumultuous right now,

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marketers and CMOs are under even more scrutiny

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than they sort of had been in the past.

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How do you spend your money?

4:46

How do you spend money the right way?

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So we have three women who have figured that out

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time and time again,

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and we wanna leverage their expertise.

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And so one of the things that separates sort of the elite CMOs

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and Demand Gen leaders is the ability to make bets

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that have outsized returns.

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So obviously, when we do uncuttable,

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there's the money that you put into SEO,

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there's money you put into Google AdWords,

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there's all those sort of things that table stakes

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you have to do,

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but those campaigns that have a massive outsized result.

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So we're gonna talk about making big bets today.

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And so let's start off Lauren.

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How do you think about making big bets?

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- That's a great question.

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So I start to look at,

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so everything I start to do,

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I look at a marketing funnel

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when I'm figuring out what are the bets I wanna make,

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and I'm doing this right now in my role.

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And I start to look at what are the levers if I pull,

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will have the biggest impact.

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So going from here's web traffic, here's form views,

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here's form completes,

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here's leads, here's opportunities.

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There's areas that you'll start to see and go,

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something is funny here, something is off,

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and this is where I wanna go and make a really big investment.

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And a good example of it is,

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and my two roles ago as CMO, a talent,

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I got there and digital was a complete disaster,

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and they never invested in infrastructure,

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they never invested in optimization,

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they never invested in things like,

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when someone comes to your website,

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how do you engage with them?

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And for me, that was a,

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we're growing slower than the rest of the company,

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every part of the funnel looks wrong.

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I'm gonna put real money here,

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I'm gonna put real effort here and see what happened,

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and it turned out that by doing that,

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after about a year, the website was driving

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60% of opportunities for marketing.

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- All right.

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- No.

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- No.

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- Julie, big bets.

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- Well, I like to think of,

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there's a part of your marketing budget

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that's always your meat and potatoes.

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There's the things that you need to keep the business going.

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Like you can't turn off certain things all the way,

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but I like to have kind of like,

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think of part of your budget as also like,

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in an innovation fund.

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So what are the big bets that you and your team

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have come up with?

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And those could vary.

7:04

I think a lot of time and Karen,

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and if I experienced a lot,

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it could be something really splashy in person

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that at first blush looks sort of wasteful.

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But if you can architect it right

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with the right customer experiences

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and the right amplification across press and social,

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doing something kind of crazy and stunt like

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can actually make sense.

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So I think always thinking of your budget as like,

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I have some money to play with and try something big.

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And if something seems crazy, it may be crazy,

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or it may be interesting,

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and it may be something that can let you stand out.

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And if you do, can you apply kind of your marketing lens

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to it?

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How do I make this not just be my crazy idea,

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but something that I can actually turn into something

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big or something more?

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- Karen, what about you?

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- Yeah, I would say similarly, for me,

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it's about what is, what do I need that I build the house

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and keep the lights on the meat and potatoes?

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But far and beyond, at least in my experience,

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what I've learned is you have to think big

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and you have to punch above your belt,

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your weight belt, because if you don't, you'll look small.

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And sometimes it's worth making a crazy investment,

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but definitely you have to push yourself

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out of your comfort zone.

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- So obviously the three of you,

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fundamental in the early days of Dreamforce

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and building an amazing event,

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how many people are gonna be investing in

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like big name events this year,

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a keeper cut, big name, trade show events?

8:31

- Ooh. - Ooh, all right.

8:35

- Wow. - Got a couple cuts.

8:37

And about, I'd say 80% keeps.

8:40

So this is actually something that we've seen a lot

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on the show where marketers being really selective

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with the events that they're looking at.

8:48

So Karen, how do you approach events?

8:50

Obviously this is what you do.

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- I'm gonna be controversial.

8:53

I'm in the cut, I'm on the cut sign there.

8:56

I think there's some interesting things going on

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in the event space, especially in the industry events space,

9:01

association space.

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I think there are 10 years behind.

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I'm so bored with them trying to reinvent a four day event.

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They're just trying to redo what they did in 2019.

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I don't think it's worth your investment.

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So I would say you have to look really hard

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at the industry events you're going to.

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And are they pushing themselves?

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Are they reinventing it?

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Are you really gonna get the return?

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Because if you're just investing three or $400,000

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in a 20 by 20 on a sad trade show floor, not worth it.

9:33

Cut.

9:34

Ooh, all right.

9:35

- Jilly, what do you think?

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- I'd like to point out that Karen runs events

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for a living myself.

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I hope I have a job tomorrow.

9:45

Really wants a week off.

9:47

Come to Opting.

9:49

No, so I'm not in an operating role right now,

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so I don't actually have a budget to cut or not cut.

9:54

But you know what I think is interesting,

9:56

and I think what you said about, you know,

9:57

boring four day events or turning up

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and having a whatever 10 by 10 booth,

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I think that's kind of always been true.

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And I know the world is different now,

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and it's so great to see the energy of Dreamforce back

10:09

and people being in person.

10:10

In person events have always played a really special role

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in B2B events, and there's always been all these stats.

10:16

Like people wanna meet face to face.

10:18

It's the best way to build trusted relationships.

10:21

But the thing that we weren't afraid to do at Dreamforce,

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and I actually worked on the first ones,

10:26

'cause I'm 100 years old,

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is we were not afraid to do them completely differently.

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And I feel like people look at it now

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and they're like, oh yeah, that's how you do a show.

10:35

But you know, in 2002, 2003,

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like you did not do a show with like wacky themes

10:42

and costumes and whatever shiny blazers

10:46

these people are wearing over here that I desperately need one.

10:49

That's what you should be spending your marketing budget on.

10:51

So I think like differentiating,

10:53

if you can do an event in a way

10:55

that is going to be special,

10:56

whether it's going to an event or throwing an event,

10:59

how do you make it different?

11:00

Like it can't just be status quo.

11:02

You have to give people a reason

11:05

that it's exciting and that it matters.

11:08

- Yeah, we--

11:09

- Same person you clapped,

11:12

like that one person we paid.

11:13

(laughing)

11:16

- Yeah, we talk about at Caspian all the time

11:20

that you have to be remarkable.

11:22

Your marketing has to be remarkable,

11:23

which means that people need to talk about it.

11:25

They need to like, remark to other people.

11:27

When I was in the elevator last night at one of the events,

11:31

two people were like reminiscing

11:32

about what they did at Dreamforce in 2019.

11:34

And this is the party we went to

11:36

and this is sort of stuff.

11:37

Like when you run an AdWords campaign,

11:39

you're not going to remember that in six years.

11:41

And be like, remember when you clicked on that one end?

11:44

- I remember the AdWords campaign I ran 20 years ago.

11:47

- Yeah, you remember it.

11:49

- But that's it.

11:50

- But yeah, so it kind of, you know,

11:54

begs the question of like,

11:55

how do you make something that's so memorable,

11:58

that's something that like, you know, there's all these,

12:01

you could meet your next spouse,

12:03

you could meet your next like co-founder of your company,

12:06

you could, you know, see Bruno Mars

12:08

and remember where you were.

12:09

Like that's the thing that makes events great

12:11

is all of that stuff.

12:13

But what we try to do is pack a bunch of people

12:15

like, you know, in a room and talk to them.

12:18

- And I think a lot of it for events,

12:20

whether it's sponsoring or running event,

12:22

it's the start with why they,

12:25

we are going to sponsor this event

12:28

because we have always done it, doesn't make sense anymore.

12:30

And attendees don't just want to show up,

12:32

go do the same thing, cram into, maybe we do here,

12:37

5,000 people in a room with a bunch of strangers,

12:40

that's not there anymore.

12:41

And we're re-evaluating our event strategy

12:45

and it is why are we going there?

12:48

Why is the audience there?

12:49

Is this the best way to reach them?

12:51

And what we're really pushing is not,

12:53

should we sponsor this event or not sponsor this event?

12:56

What are we trying to accomplish

12:58

and does the event fit into that strategy?

13:01

And if we're running an event and owning an event,

13:03

we're having a lot of hard conversations about it

13:05

of is the best way to do this?

13:08

Let's throw a big customer conference

13:11

or people want more intimate connections.

13:14

They want relationships.

13:15

So rather than a massive customer conference,

13:18

is it a smaller road show?

13:19

Is it executive events?

13:20

Is it more of a summit?

13:22

So really to your point, rethinking,

13:24

but thinking about where people today,

13:26

what do they care about today

13:28

and what are we trying to achieve?

13:29

- So what about small batch events

13:31

like digital wine tasting or chocolate event keeper cut?

13:36

Does anyone doing that sort of stuff?

13:37

- Say about most of the teams, a couple cuts there.

13:43

It's something that we've heard on the show

13:46

that has been an uncuttable budget

13:48

and is those sort of small batch events.

13:50

And part of the allure is that you can control

13:52

sort of all the variables

13:53

and it's not just a bunch of salespeople

13:55

like descending on the people

13:57

that they can actually build those connections.

13:58

Karen, are you all doing stuff like that

14:00

or thinking about that?

14:01

- I would argue that a small batch in person event

14:04

is more impactful.

14:07

Really where your curating experience is personalized

14:10

and truly about peer to peer networking.

14:15

I think the small batch digital events

14:17

have served their purpose,

14:18

but I think they're gonna peter off.

14:20

- Yeah, honey, we just hosted.

14:23

So at Sales Law, we just had our customer conference in Austin

14:26

and then we had an offshoot

14:27

that was a 50 person executive event.

14:29

We've never done something like it before.

14:31

We had a White House economist come in

14:35

and give this great talk.

14:36

We had this like live interactive learning.

14:39

We focused a ton on content.

14:41

Do you know what I got the best feedback on

14:42

of the entire event, round table discussion?

14:45

- Oh, so long. - Round table pizza?

14:47

- Oh my gosh, I loved it.

14:48

They are CRO rented in Airbnb and said,

14:52

you know what, let's have the after party at my Airbnb.

14:55

And Gaunt is like local band that he's friends with

15:00

who by the way are incredible.

15:02

So we had this local Austin band playing music

15:05

in the backyard and 35 of 50 of the world,

15:10

probably most badass heroes hanging out

15:13

at an Airbnb together, listening to this live band

15:16

and they went, no, we've never done something

15:18

like that before.

15:19

That was the thing for the event.

15:22

And I was like, if that's all it took,

15:25

I would have spent a lot less money on that economist.

15:27

- Yeah, I know, I mean, I feel like as B2B marketers,

15:30

which I know most of this audience is,

15:32

like we have spent so much of our careers

15:35

thinking about like ROI and what does this decision maker

15:38

care about, but like we are also marketing

15:40

to the very same humans that the serial companies

15:43

and the wireless companies and everybody else's marketing to.

15:46

And I think something that Salesforce is the place

15:49

that we all kind of grew up as marketers

15:51

was never afraid to treat its customers like humans.

15:53

And I think coming out of COVID,

15:56

the desire for human connection is even stronger

15:58

than it was before and not everyone wants to do that

16:01

through work related stuff.

16:02

But if you can provide that,

16:03

I think there's a real appetite for it.

16:05

So showing up as a company as a human,

16:07

marketing as a human and bringing humans together,

16:09

there's a big space for that.

16:12

- One of the things that we hear as a common topic

16:18

on the show is syndication,

16:21

keeper cut, contents indication.

16:23

Yeah, a lot of cuts.

16:27

- I'm gonna go strong cut for like the last decade.

16:30

- Well, and the reason why I bring it up

16:34

is because again, it goes back to sort of that element

16:37

of control, I mean, so you said cut for the last decade, why?

16:41

- Hey, no one's gonna be happy with them about to say,

16:46

content syndication's really lazy, it doesn't work.

16:49

I haven't seen ROI from contents indication

16:51

in more than 10 years.

16:52

It's a great way to like juice your lead volume though.

16:55

And sometimes as marketers, we need to juice lead volume.

16:59

But ultimately, it's, I just,

17:02

if someone can tell me a place

17:04

that they've gotten a good return on this,

17:06

I'm open to being wrong, I'm just hoping.

17:09

- Lauren, I feel a little betrayed

17:10

because I used to work with you.

17:13

And I used to give you a lot of budget

17:15

and you'd be like, you know what the secret is, Julie?

17:18

Content syndication.

17:20

We used to get S.Y.R.s to qualify all of those leads first.

17:24

- Okay. - So yes.

17:26

But now they're just selling you here as the lead

17:28

and I'm like, who are the people that qualify these for me?

17:31

And no one does that anymore.

17:32

We'll talk about that after.

17:33

- Okay.

17:34

- So one of the things that we hear a lot as well

17:41

is that marketers are spending a ton of work

17:43

to do all these different campaigns,

17:46

to do in-person events, to do this stuff.

17:47

And then once they get to the website,

17:49

there's sort of nothing there.

17:50

Obviously our amazing sponsor qualified

17:52

who put this all together, which we love.

17:54

(audience cheering)

17:57

- Ken, can I do a plug on how I got all that extra money

18:00

from the website?

18:01

- Yeah, go for some. - Was after I bought qualified.

18:03

- Yeah.

18:03

- Yeah, there you go.

18:04

- Yes.

18:05

- Actually true.

18:06

- But I think that what we're seeing,

18:09

which is a really common thing

18:11

that people are seeing is uncuttable now,

18:13

is RevOps, which is like,

18:15

hey, if you don't have all of your marketing operations,

18:17

all of your revenue ops,

18:18

if you don't have that stuff down cold,

18:20

then what's the point of running all these other brand campaigns?

18:23

What's the point of running these demand campaigns?

18:26

Julie, you're not in the long, what do you think?

18:28

- Yes, I mean, so I think I was very lucky

18:31

to grow up at a company like Salesforce.

18:33

A lot of my marketing career was there.

18:35

And because of the nature of the products

18:37

that we sold, a lot of the stuff was sort of there

18:40

as we were building it.

18:41

And obviously technology keeps evolving,

18:42

but when I went to a company like Slack,

18:45

which has a massive self-service engine

18:47

and it bolted on an enterprise engine,

18:49

a lot of that infrastructure wasn't there

18:51

that I had taken for granted for so long.

18:53

And I'm always a little wary of marketing being taken down

18:58

to an exact science, but on the other end,

19:00

I'd like to know if I generate a lead

19:02

or somebody to come to the website

19:04

that something could happen for them

19:06

that might lead to them actually.

19:08

- It gets to a person.

19:09

- Maybe.

19:10

- If they have that level of interest.

19:12

So I think it's just, it's sort of that missing piece

19:16

of, and it became even more apparent

19:18

and more important to me when I went to a company

19:21

with both not that infrastructure there

19:23

and this sort of massive top of funnel

19:26

and a real need to be able to scientifically move that

19:30

through to more revenue for the company.

19:32

- Karen, I'm curious, what's one of your uncutable

19:37

event or event items that you're like,

19:39

"Hey, if you're doing an event,

19:41

you gotta make sure that you're doing this?"

19:42

- Probably, that's a tough one.

19:48

I would say executive C-suite engagement for me

19:52

where we are in our company and our journey.

19:54

And Julie's gonna love this.

19:56

I would say you have to,

19:58

this kind of goes back to I think where we are right now.

20:02

I think we need to entertain our customers

20:04

and our partners to our prospects.

20:06

So I would say luminary speakers, I need to draw.

20:10

I think we are working in a world now

20:13

where we really need to think about convincing people

20:16

to buy a ticket and fly out to San Francisco

20:18

and spend a few days at Dreamforce.

20:21

And so I think you need to entertain them

20:24

and motivate them and inspire them beyond product, right?

20:29

What's going on in the world?

20:31

They have a killer lineup and Salesforce has excelled

20:34

in this for many, many years and set the benchmark.

20:37

And I think it's something that I inspire

20:39

to adopt as well.

20:40

- Yeah, we're about to sort of multi-series blog posts

20:45

on this idea of like, edutainment.

20:47

And if you think of it as an X, Y, X,

20:49

you have education on one side and entertainment on the other.

20:53

And the vast majority of our stuff is like lower,

20:55

left quadrant, like not that educational,

20:57

not that entertaining.

20:58

The good stuff is like, educational,

21:02

but not that entertaining.

21:03

And virtually nothing is on the right side

21:05

because it's like, nah, it's not like--

21:06

- Where does this fall?

21:08

- This, I don't know.

21:09

- Edutaining?

21:10

(laughing)

21:11

- It depends how much people do it.

21:12

- How is it going so far?

21:13

- Okay, if we're,

21:14

"Edutaining Show Keep,"

21:16

everyone just show the blue one.

21:17

- Infotainment.

21:20

- Okay, so, yeah, anyways, yeah.

21:23

So I mean, I think that that's like, yeah,

21:25

we are competing now with Marvel and Disney Plus

21:29

and all these things.

21:30

We have Hulu, everything is in-device.

21:32

It's on the go, it's all these things.

21:33

Like, that's who you're competing against

21:35

for people's attention span.

21:37

And if you write shitty blog posts,

21:38

like people aren't gonna listen or pay attention.

21:41

Okay, uncutable budget items,

21:45

put up your paddle and yell one out

21:47

and we'll do some keeper cut.

21:49

Who's got an uncutable budget item

21:52

that they wanna hear some stuff on?

21:54

Anyone?

21:57

All right, I'll keep going.

22:00

- Podcast.

22:01

- Hey.

22:02

(laughing)

22:04

Keep it down.

22:06

- I love these.

22:06

- It's more than just a podcast in it.

22:11

There's video too.

22:13

Yeah, what do you think?

22:16

Content series, podcast and video series.

22:19

- I think it's a way to stand out right now

22:20

if you do it well.

22:22

What is hard and it's content without distribution

22:26

and it reminds me of sort of the early days

22:27

of content marketing where everyone was like,

22:29

"Look, I wrote a blog post.

22:30

"I made this ebook.

22:32

"I created a podcast,

22:33

"but no one sees it or uses it."

22:36

Then you absolutely shouldn't do it

22:37

and it's a waste of money,

22:39

but if you can create great content

22:41

and then actually distribute it,

22:44

it's incredible and having done some,

22:48

(bell ringing)

22:49

"Oh, nevermind."

22:51

That was some hot content.

22:55

(laughing)

22:56

- Cheers.

22:57

(laughing)

22:59

If we're already outside.

23:02

- Emergency reporting, incident.

23:04

- We're already outside.

23:06

(laughing)

23:07

We said we were gonna keep the podcast.

23:09

- We're gonna keep the podcast.

23:10

- I said the time to kick us off was a hand motion.

23:14

(bell ringing)

23:17

- We are in the designated area.

23:18

(laughing)

23:21

(bell ringing)

23:23

- We're in the designated area.

23:25

- So analyst relations.

23:28

- If you're selling to the enterprise, you need it.

23:31

- If you're selling to the enterprise, you need it.

23:33

- Yeah.

23:34

We're in the security space, so keep.

23:36

(laughing)

23:38

- Would you like us to keep buying?

23:39

- It's like a wild event.

23:40

- Fun.

23:41

- Yeah.

23:42

- Always on our toes as marketers.

23:45

- Well, the end of this was gonna be like

23:47

the best ending ever, but we're gonna have to cut it early.

23:50

- We had so much good content.

23:51

- Do you want us to try to be louder than the alarm?

23:54

(laughing)

23:58

- Tune in to demand-gen visionary slides.

24:01

- We'll open up the bar.

24:05

We might come back.

24:06

We might not.

24:07

We'll see how this goes.

24:08

- I have a long if you're not investing in content.

24:10

(laughing)

24:12

- We can harmonize to Rocket Man.

24:14

We did it earlier.

24:15

(laughing)

24:18

(bell ringing)

24:20

- Well, anyways, thanks.

24:25

(laughing)

24:27

- More soon, we'll do this over audio.

24:30

- Remember that time when we were at that event

24:32

in the fire alarm?

24:34

- This is why we do On Demand podcast.

24:37

Okay, you guys, the bar is open.

24:39

We will be here all day.

24:41

- Open, keep or cut.

24:43

- That's it.

24:44

- Keep the bar.

24:45

Keep the bar.

24:46

Keep the bar.

24:47

(laughing)

24:51

(upbeat music)

24:53

(upbeat music)

24:56

(upbeat music)

24:58

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