Maintaining Human Connections in a Digital-First World
Dillon Nugent shares her insights into maintaining human connections in a digital-first world, the importance of speaking your customer's language and diversifying your portfolio to reduce market risks.
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Welcome to Demand Gen Visionaries.
I'm Ian Faison, CEO of Caspman Studios.
And today I am joined by a special guest, Dylan Haru.
>> I'm great, thank you.
Nice to meet you too, and be here today.
>> Yeah, excited to have you on the show.
Chat about the company and all things marketing.
So how did you get started in Demand Gen?
>> I took a job.
Unlike many of your guests, perhaps,
I did not build my career purely in tech marketing or in Demand Gen.
I moved into Demand Gen a little bit later in my career.
I spent years and years in the advertising world,
and was really focused on B2C and really masked marketed products.
And then moved into tech into marketing and
landed my first Demand Gen job.
Specifically, I was hired to be an ABN specialist.
So I was targeting our top 10 accounts at my company and
doing very white glove tactics and
programs that helped expand the business with those accounts.
>> And flash forward to today, tell us about your current role.
>> My current role is my Chief Marketing Officer at Coros.
I am a first time CMO, and I have been in this role for
only a few months.
So I'm learning a lot of the rookie things you learn when you first
step into this position.
I had been at Coros for about four years, and
I was running Demand Gen for the majority of my time here, as well as marketing
operations and events, and had the opportunity to move into this role.
And I'm really enjoying the broader view across marketing.
But Demand Gen does really run deep in my blood, and so that's where I am today
>> Always good to see a Demand Gen person get promoted to CMO.
That's what we like to see.
Let's get to our first segment.
It's called the Trust Tree.
This is where we go and feel honest and
trusty that you can share those deepest, darkest Demand Gen secrets.
What does Coros do?
>> Coros is targeted at the enterprise market, and
we provide customer engagement software.
So essentially what that is, is providing the ability to get companies,
the ability to connect with customers in any channel digitally.
But providing enough human connection, because the company does really believe
that human connection is very valuable to brand experiences.
However, we know companies are looking for efficiencies, and
we know customers want to connect digitally.
So our software helps markers, contact centers,
customer service agents, community managers to harness that digital interaction
And not only provide a human connection to that interaction, but
also valuable data collection that helps provide a more consistent,
seamless experience for our customer.
>> Yeah, tell me a little bit more about those customers.
Where in the enterprise are they, what kinds of verticals and what does that
look like?
>> Yeah, it's broad.
Some B2B, mostly B2C companies.
And it is across pretty much every vertical.
Maybe not manufacturing and things like that that don't have that B2C element,
but Java hospitality, retail, fencer, high tech, telecom.
Any of the major industries who we're talking to, and
we are talking to an enterprise level company.
Our solutions are quite robust, and they are built for scale.
And built for highly customized solutions.
So oftentimes if you're a small to medium size business that's building
your social practice or your online customer engagements,
you don't need as robust a solution that Coros provides.
But it's often the brands that are already large or
are growing into that and have outgrown other solutions.
>> And then yeah, what does that buying committee look like at those big
companies?
How many people are involved in the deal?
>> Yeah, the buying committee is really broad.
And that is one of, I think, our biggest challenges.
And also one of the things we get to explore is that because we have a number
of different solutions from branded online communities to social media
management,
to chat and messaging and customer service software.
We are dealing with all of those different end users.
And really ultimately where the challenge is,
where does that budget for customer experience like?
It is often who will be across different organizations within a company.
Sometimes it will be with a CMO, sometimes a CXO.
So primarily it's a CMO and CXO who is the budget holder.
But there are a lot of influencers across all those departments that I
mentioned,
as well as IT, looking at the overall tech stack.
And how it all works together and how to simplify and consolidate and
get as much efficiency as possible.
>> And how is your marketing org structured to acquire those accounts?
>> So our marketing team is organized by, we have a marketing ops team,
we have our brand team that's working world top of funnel with all of our
awareness.
We have our demand gen team.
The demand gen team is organized essentially by pain point or solution.
And they're all targeting different personas.
So let's say by both solution and persona.
And we have also an events team that sits under demand gen.
And we have an international team that we give a lot of empowerment to really
reflecting the needs of that region.
So we all fit together, but essentially we give our international
regions a little bit more leeway to market differently.
>> I want to forgot product marketing too.
Product marketing, pretty big part of the engine.
Yes, product marketing also sits in my work.
>> And so how does like demand fit within your marketing strategy?
Obviously you were running demand for a long time, so clearly this is your baby
>> Corosse has had a really interesting history that I walked in to really at
the inception.
It was Corosse came to, was the merger of a couple of big companies that came
together that were both in the customer engagement space.
And since then has also acquired other companies along the way.
So it has been a work in progress.
It has been a growth experience for the company.
And when I walked in, it was brand new.
We were relaunching the brand rebranding, taking the awareness that had been
built from two different companies and harnessing that and leveraging it.
But at the same time, we were really trying to carve out the space for
a net new brand and new offering.
So where demand fits in that whole picture is that while we were trying to do a
lot
of awareness, we were also trying to do a lot of lead gen at the same time.
The belief with bringing these companies together was that we were going to
have
a much richer, broader offering.
So how could we capitalize on that?
I will say one thing with our demand function was we had to always think about
that awareness piece.
As much as we were trying to drive leads, people still were asking who we were,
who is this brand, you would talk about the legacy brands, they would remember.
So in so much of what we do, it was, are we driving the right kind of leads?
But at the same time, are we also educating and driving awareness?
So it was a dual and we worked really closely with the brand team on that, but
it was a dual focus there and it still is today.
It takes time.
>> Yeah, it really does, especially like getting everything from the story to
the design to incorporating new companies and their piece into that.
All of those things happening at once, normally companies just kind of have to
deal with one at a time.
A big rebrand or an acquisition or whatever it is, but
kind of dealing with all of those at the same time creates, like you said,
a longer tail there.
>> And at the same time we were going after the existing markets.
We had been going after separate brands.
We were also looking to break into new markets.
So it was a whole another part of the buying center we were trying to, and
we still are building familiarity with.
And so that's been a challenge.
It's also been made the job really interesting.
The big part of our demand-gen strategy is like most B2B software companies is
content marketing.
That is a really big piece of how we educate our buyers or prospective buyers
on a space that is nascent to many and it's constantly changing and so dynamic.
Even for us who are constantly making sure we're adding the right feature
functionality to our software in order to keep up with trends,
all of our customers and prospects are doing the same thing,
trying to keep up with what's changing.
Certainly the past two years of the pandemic only accelerate the digital,
the need for digital engagement for brands, where people weren't going into
stores and leaving their houses.
And that behavior as we've all been following and observing has stuck a lot as
well. I mean, there has been some return obviously, but even when we look at
how we're working remotely, digital software and how we've gotten used to
the ability to find human connection through digital has enabled how we're
living and how we're purchasing, how we're interacting with brands, and also in
our personal lives with each other, how we're working together.
All right, let's get to our next segment, the playbook, is where you open up
that
playbook and talk about the tactics that help you win.
You play to win the game.
Hello, you play to win the game.
You don't play to just play it.
What three channels or tactics are your uncuttable budget items?
The first one's going to be totally unoriginal, which I think is table
stakes, but at the end, the SEO, I think, are, again, if you believe that
people
are online doing their research, their education, their purchasing, then that's
where they start. So if you're not showing up there, you're doing your
brand of just service and you're not cementing yourself as solution or
something for people to explore. So SEO, SEO, I don't think you can put enough
emphasis on, say, events, ironically looking at events through such a different
lens in terms of how we define what an event is.
Again, during the last two years, events became virtual. We learned
everything about how to do a virtual event. I think everybody went
overboard with webinars and then everybody got sick of webinars. So it's
constantly changing that format. As we're going back to normalcy, we're seeing
events are coming back. People have this desire to be face to face and have
more
gaming connection. However, they're not coming back exactly the same.
And so we are experimenting a lot more with field strategy and road showing
things and going to customers and prospects and having more intimate,
highly targeted, smaller group gatherings instead of the big hosted
conferences. So I think that's a big difference that we're seeing, but it
doesn't take away from the fact that getting out in front of people on face
to face provides a lot of value. So events would definitely be second thing.
I would not cut input of their other one would be content syndication. I know
that's also a popular answer, but I do feel like it is a great engine for
driving specificity in the types of leads you're looking for and getting in
front of the audiences just like events can do. But getting in front of
audiences that you normally struggle to get in front of, who don't know to
look for you, don't know to recognize you and who you're about. So content
syndication offers that ability to put that leadership and the unmeaningful
point of view and education in front of people that you normally wouldn't be
able to. And lastly, I would be remiss to not mention partnerships. I think
this is a really untapped area for chorus that we are diving really deep
into. And just like content syndication, it's looking at other strategic
alliances that make sense for the audiences you're both going after and
helping each other get in front of those audiences.
Zooming in on a couple of things there, content syndication is actually kind of
polarizing. We have some people who think it's great and other folks who
would rather cut it. I'm curious, like, what types of places do you look to do
content syndication? You also create a bunch of original content as well. So
just yet curious how you think about those two things.
Yeah, you're absolutely right. Because when I walked into over here, it was as
if content syndication should never be like that again or used and it was good
for nothing. So we did abandon it for a couple of years. And it was only during
COVID that we picked it back up again. And honestly, a little bit out of
desperation of what do we do? Right? Where are we going to put our dollars?
How are we going to put out the right people? We feel paralyzed with a lot of
things we can't do anymore. It was a really good lesson in never throwing the
baby out with the bathwater when it comes to channels or tactics. Just because
something doesn't work right now. It doesn't mean it can't work in the future,
depending on what you're talking about, who you're talking to and the time that
it is. So I think that was a really good lesson. I always like to say
everything
will just new again. Because I think you constantly have to be changing your
channels. I liken it to a diverse portfolio, right? The more eggs you put in
one basket, the more you have risk, the love diminishing returns really does
crystallize. You can't overdo webinars. You can't overdo content marketing. You
can't overdo events. Once you start doing a certain amount, you're just not
going to get the return permit that you do at a more balanced level. So
content syndication, I would say, it has been very controversial. Even
internally, do I trust these leads? Do they really know who we are? How we
qualify them? Certainly, I think every sales team wants to know that these
people came to our website and they clicked on us and we nurtured them and
homegrown leads, essentially. I look at content syndication as outsourcing and
farming things out. Sometimes that's the best thing to do and to go to those
sources that know how to really grow that well. So we've experimented a lot
with how many touches, how we take those leads from content syndication
providers and then nurture them ourselves. It's highly dependent on the
content topic who we're targeting. We've really watched closely, like, let's
test and learn. Let's see how two touch does and how three touch does. Let's
hold these for a little longer, see if they can burn higher. So we really
experimented. What's that right sweet spot? I think there was a time during
COVID when everybody was a little panicked and we passed a lot really
quickly and we learned we passed it too quickly. And that's just a waste of
your marketing investment there. The leads get disqualified or recycled. So
yeah, I think that there is definitely a controversy around it and trusting it
because you have essentially outsourced something. But I think if you find the
right partners there and you trust qualification process and we've
experimented a lot with custom questions so that we only accept leads
that answer these questions certain ways. So there's a lot of different ways
that I feel like content syndication partners are providing that flexibility
and creativity around how you customize the lead to you're looking for.
Yeah, it's really interesting. My thoughts on this are when I see it done
poorly is often a reflection of the media organization and how they
position their content. Like, for example, you write a piece that goes up
for someone's website and it's just chock full of ads. There's the like
pop ups and banners and all sorts of crazy stuff. You're like, gosh, I can't
even get through this thing versus maybe it just would have been worth it to
just spend more time on just, you know, running paid ads to this thing and
driving back to our site. So yeah, I don't know. I'm curious to your thoughts
there.
I think there's so many variables. And that's what you need to do
indeed with the partners you talk to those new shortage of content
syndication partners out there. And those platforms and how your content is
served up is very specific to what you need. Anything that's overcrowded
and vying for attention, pulling a reader's attention in a lot of ways
is not going to be a high quality interaction with your content, nor are
they going to really remember that it came from you. I think that's one of
the hardest parts about content syndication is you are con borrowing
this equity and borrowing this audience. You have to break through in a
strong enough way to where what you've served up and who you are is
memorable, because we're all bombarded with a lot of messages, no matter
what platform or website we go to, a big part of my passion, which is
finding messaging that is really clear and simple. And I hate sometimes
people are thrown off by this word, but provocative in a way that
represents your point of view. I mean, to me, that's marketing 101 is
how you understand how you strike that balance. You speak your language,
but you also open the door to something they hadn't thought about
before.
So when you're doing that type of syndication, are your teams making
that stuff in house? And then just spending the time to find the right
partners to syndicate? Or how do you think about like the creation of
that stuff? Because obviously, someone's got to be creating the
provocative content.
We are creating all the content here. And we are not outsourcing that
part of it. We are just outsourcing placement, the way to target that
audience with that content. We've done a lot of test and learning around
a test and learn around this piece of content does really well in these
types of environments with this type of buyer. And we often will look at
both what performs well and some of our ad placement that we're doing
directly and see if we're getting the same result for content syndication.
We will often find a different result from their own website or own email
nurture will perform differently. So it's really paying attention to the
environment you're serving up that content.
I have to mention that, of course, you all have a podcast, the ex confessions,
which is rad, which people can check out on the website. And that's one of
the types of resources that you're creating. And so I'm curious about how
you're thinking about the creation of not only just that type of content,
but also the resources and some of the channel integrations that you've been
talking about as it relates to creating meaningful, powerful stuff.
Yeah. So to be slightly controversial, I'll say I definitely am
fueled by looking at the B2B environment and seeing that there is a lot of me
to messaging going on and a lot of the same language, a lot of jargon,
a lot of acronyms we all love to use. And I think there is a certain part of
that that is connecting with your audience. Here's the language you use.
Here's how you speak. We get you, we get your world. But at the same time,
I find it very much like a sea of sameness and that there is all that
jargon felt very cold and clinical. In some ways, we get very caught up in
feature function. And I take a little bit of the page I learned in more
my B2C world, which was, you know, there's emotion and logic in every
purchase decision. And how can we talk more about to in this space?
I think there's a lack of that. And I think there's also a lack of what
particular point of view is I'm also really picky about it being authentic
and not just saying again, what you think people want to buy in here. But
why is that true for you and what your solution offers? Why is that true for
your company in the partnership you offer? How do you stand behind that?
How do you actually illustrate that? So I think that's a really powerful
place to focus. I think we all want to be saying the same things that it
just really blends together.
We miss the that human element. We're talking about tech. We're talking about
software. We're talking about hardware. And it's humans buying these things.
It's human using these things. We're enabling humans with these things. So
we have to bring humanity into it. And I think that starts with not just
getting lost in your own roadmap and your own features and functions and
thinking that's the most important thing you talk about. The most important
thing you talk about is your customer and your audience.
And what problem they're trying to solve because that is going to be a larger
idea than the feature function.
What about your most cuttable or something that maybe you're not investing
in right this second?
This lack of draw that big, huge events are getting. I think I hear
day after day of outside of the big, huge industry leaders, there is less
discretionary budget to actually travel to these things. Everybody's TNA is a
little bit more than it used to be. There's, I think you just think less
desire to be in this really big atmosphere with lots of people.
I think people are coming back in a different way. So we are not hosting
huge venue events like we used to. We are doing it on a smaller scale more
frequently. And I think the same goes for some of the other industry.
We're skeptical of really are we very yet again?
I think we're not. I think it's like about the depth of the engagement at
this point, right? It's like the people who are ready to be there are ready to
do that. And the people who aren't like, aren't because we had to change our
whole lives around. And from marketing perspective, I think it's about the
depth of engagement and trying to figure out ways to connect with the folks
that do consume in that way and focus on what do we have for the people who
consume in a totally different way and that each of those are a deep
engagement rather than sort of like surface level, drone dollars and stuff.
I can agree more. I think the meaningful factor in the engagements is there's a
higher bar. I think just like we look at the workplace and we say, we're not
going to go back to the office Monday through Friday nine to five, because I
know I can do it this other way. However, I still want to see people. I
still need to have interactions. I'm just going to do it differently. I
think it's the same thing as happening with how we interact, whether it's
socially or for business. And I'm sure you've heard I hear from people
getting better. But when we first started opening back up, it was people
would go out and they'd be exhausted. People talking to people like, Oh, my
God, I'm still out of practice. But I think we have to admit like we're
changed. And I think it's important to recognize that and know what have we
learned from the past? And how did the past change us? And how do we
embrace that moving forward? I'm trying to go back to what it was,
right? How do we embrace that? And I think you constantly have to do
that. Just to get pandemic to do that. I think whether it's economic
conditions or other cultural milestones or just trends that are
happening, that we have to take a look at and understand how is this
changing how people are going to interact with my messaging and my
outreach.
How do you view your website?
The website is the home court advantage is absolutely the most
powerful place in once you get your audience there to convert them.
It is inviting them into your home. And I think one of the areas that
we are shining more and more for and I think underutilized is the
ability to personalize that website experience. So there's a whole
slew of technology around how to do this in a way that looks at where
someone's coming from, what they've read, any of the other data we can
gather from their search history. So I think providing that personalized
web experience is something we're going to see more and more of.
I think the website is a place where we need to practice incredible
discipline because we can do page after page and because no one's
telling us there's a word limit. We need to hold ourselves back.
I was talking to someone today. We're creating a podcast for a
company and the host was saying how it's so helpful to have our team
because they can never stop themselves. Like once they start going
and I was like, yeah, it's called an editor. You know what I mean?
Like, there's a reason why you have producers and editors and all
these things. There's a reason why every author has an editor.
And it's like, that is where I feel like us as marketers so often,
like, you know, you want to have that blend of the editor that can
reel you in, but also the freedom to do the stuff that you want to
do, you know, to go there.
And you're trying to satisfy a lot of masters on this. Everybody
has a little skin in the game. Everybody loves to comment on what
imagery out on that website or why is that person there? Why do
they look like that? Or why do we use that word? Or why does this
toggle? I mean, there's so many ways, obviously, to customize
that everybody has their own opinion. You can't please everybody.
I think it's user testing is also incredibly underappreciated.
And probably something people don't do enough. Hey, we all drink
the cool way. You know, we all know this messaging. And if we
still think sometimes it makes sound confusing, gosh, what
other people think? So the more we can step outside and get that
outside perspective from that editor producer function or a
you a possible user, I think the better.
Let's go to our next segment, the dust up. So we talked about
healthy tension, whether that's with your board, your sales
team, your competitors, or anyone else. Have you had a
memorable dust up in your career?
Yes, this would be an interesting twist because one of my big
passions is alignment with sales. And creatively, I don't want
to work somewhere in marketing where marketing and sales are
not on the same page. It's just not as rewarding. It's
powerful. And it's really gets tired and exhausting and a cliche.
And nobody wants to live in that. So, ironically, it's not a
dust up with sales. It was when I was first tired to do ABM. And I
didn't know any better. I did my homework. I realized ABM was
all about partnering with sales. I embedded myself in sales in
every way that I could. But interestingly, the dust up was
a marketing. My marketing folks said, Hey, you're always
about sales. What are you doing? Like, why are you always over
there? Why are you always in that area? You know, you should be
with marketing. And at that point, I felt like, Hey, what I've
accomplished by getting in the boat with these people is that we
are working together. And whether that's they come to your
side, you go to their site, it doesn't really matter. But at
the end of the day, there was such there's so much more
power in that. And it didn't have to be marketing versus sales.
Like, instead of the phrase is marketing and service of sales,
we're all in service of revenue. You know, we're all in the same
race. You know, the minute we silo that into, we do this and
we do that or we had our numbers and we guys did, it's just
you're broken. Yeah, this one of the things that's been so
interesting about product led growth and just this whole like
kind of growth marketing function, where then all of a sudden
marketing is straight up owning a number, like actually owning it.
And then it's like self serve and all that sort of stuff, like
who's in charge of self serve and everything. You're like, Whoa.
If like self serve is a number, then you start to look at the
revenue number as very jointly held thing. The marketing is like
beholden to that kind of shifted the dynamic there. And you know,
we've had a bunch of those type of CMOs on the show and we're
running PLG and it's like, yeah, it's a different world. Like,
it is a different conversation when you own that stuff.
Okay, let's get to our next and final segment. Quick hits.
These are quick questions and quick answers. Just like how
quickly qualified helps companies generate pipeline faster.
Tap into your great assessor your website to identify your most
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It's quick and easy just like these questions. Go to qualified.com
to learn more. We love qualified with every little fabric of our
hearts. Go to qualified.com to learn more. Quick hits. Still,
are you ready? I think. Number one, do you have a hidden
talent or skill that's not on your resume? I do really good
impression. Of? I might be able to do you after this conversation.
Oh, there you go. Of anybody. Of anybody. I will just start
talking like somebody that I mean, I work with or I'm friends
with and people are like, it's crazy how much you sound like
that person. That's great. You can host next episode.
Favorite book podcast or TV show that you've been checking out
that you would recommend? I love anything from Adam Grant.
I read his book. Think again. I thought it was great.
I'm really fascinated with psychology and the other book I am
into but not yet through. It's very dense. Interesting is how
minds change and I find it fascinating how we don't even
realize enough subconscious. When we change our minds or what
changes are mine? Favorite non-marketing hobby that maybe
indirectly makes you a better marketer? I think directly makes
me a better marketer. I'm being a curious consumer. I often
will mystery shop. I will really explore why do I love the
brains I love? I love that. Love the mystery shopping.
I know you've been a first time CMO just for a little bit
already but what's your advice to a fellow first time CMO
trying to figure out their demand and marketing? I would say
so often everyone says look at the data and by no means am I
short-changing that. I think the data is hugely important and
can teach us a lot but it doesn't teach you everything.
So I would say bring the data and bring your insight.
If you're missing the insight go back and find it. Trust the
numbers and trust your gut because if you're just using one of
the other you're probably missing something.
That's it. That's all we got for today for our listeners go to
chorost.com to learn more. A lot of cool stuff that you're all
doing. A lot of cool content. Great podcast. Customer experience.
I think every single marketer needs to learn more about
customer experience because it is what we should be marketing
and it's our business. So a lot of cool stuff there.
Any final thoughts? Anything to plug?
Yeah I would just say I agree what you just said. That is
one of the reasons I am here and we love the space I'm in is that
we are all living in every day especially as marketers. We're
probably more attuned to it but even when we're not a marketer
it's that experience with a brand you have numerous
experiences throughout every day. The ones that surprise and delight
you or meet you or even just meet your expectation are amazing
and the power that brings to the loyalty you have the trust you
have on that brand. So if you can create something through an
experience you can make people go out of their way make people
pay more. Go to you even when it's not convenient.
I couldn't agree more. I'd rather have something with a brilliant
customer experience that I don't have to worry about all the other stuff.
Thanks again for joining. We really appreciate it and we'll talk soon.
Thanks Ian.
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