Marketers Shouldn't Be Order-Takers
Learn from Heidi Bullock, CMO at Tealium about consolidating signals and sharing a point of view with sales.
(upbeat music)
- Well, can I pipe in the visionaries?
I'm Ian Faizon, CEO of Cosmean Studios,
and today I am joined by a recurring special guest,
Heidi Volkow, are you?
- I'm great, thanks for having me, Ian.
- Yeah, last episode of your episode's 70,
and so we're, oh gosh, almost 100,
almost 100 past that, which is crazy.
- I'm amazing. - I'm excited.
- I'm excited to chat with you today.
We're gonna dig in on all things tealant.
- Right.
- And you're gonna share a lot of fun stuff.
Our show is those brought to you by our friends at Qualified,
go to Qualified.com to learn about the number one tool
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for companies that use Salesforce.
Head over to Qualified.com.
Right now, first question was your first job in marketing, Heidi?
First job in marketing other than comedian.
I would say my first job that I would say
I had a true role in product marketing.
And I started my career actually in a pretty technical field,
and over time I moved into product marketing
because folks were like, you can say the technical things,
but in a way we all understand.
So that was a good skill.
- Ian, flash forward to today.
What does it mean to be a CMO of telium?
- Yeah, I think what it means is being kind of the chief orchestrator.
That's how I really think about it.
I feel like it's my job to take the product pieces,
the technology, all the things, and make it so what we're doing
is clear.
And so I orchestrate a lot.
That's what I think my job is in creating preference.
- Creating preference.
I love that. - Yes.
- Isn't that what we all do?
That's great. - Isn't what we all do.
And of course sales.
I mean, it's like anyone in marketing
who doesn't think they're in sales, they need to rethink it.
So we're all in sales.
That's for sure.
- All right, let's get to our first segment,
the trust tree where you go and feel honest and trusted,
share those deepest, darkest pipeline secrets.
What does telium do?
- So telium connects customer data,
so brands can better connect to their customers.
And we believe that customer data is a company's true
competitive advantage.
So we have a customer data platform,
but the easiest way to think about it is
anywhere that you have data, we bring it together.
We make sure that it's accurate up to date,
and then we help companies activate it through key channels.
So in the simplest terms, you think about garbage and garbage out.
We make sure that what you put into Marquetto
braze, you name the system, it's good, accurate data,
or AI as well.
- And what are your types of customers?
- Yeah, so our customer base are large global enterprises.
So definitely regulated industries like financial services,
healthcare, retail, but global large enterprise.
- And what does that buying committee look like?
- Yeah, so the buying committee is made up really,
I would say of three personas that we think a lot about,
a marketer, typically somebody in a leadership role
that says we need this,
then definitely somebody on the data science side of things,
a technologist, and then probably a CIO in most cases
that basically says yes, this technology looks good,
we're willing to put it in place.
So it's really those key roles, those three.
- Isn't it kind of silly that there's not a job
that's like at the point of all three of those things?
I mean, I guess in some ways like marketing operations
in like a sort of-- - Revops.
- Yeah, revops is like sort of, but--
- Or them.
- Yeah, but it's just like not, it's like,
it's so important, you know, like your data is so important.
- It's really everything.
I mean, we look at it in the simplest of terms,
it's like the blood in your body,
and it's feeding all the different organs.
I mean, that's kind of how,
it's a simple analogy a lot of people get,
but if you think about it, it's like,
wow, your marketing campaign, it didn't go well,
well, why?
And then often you look into it,
you're like, well, the data wasn't good.
Or you know, especially in B2B,
people do all these direct mail campaigns,
and the first thing people need to do is look and make sure
that all the contacts are correct,
because sometimes you do it, and you're just like,
you know, Mark hasn't worked at company acts for like five years.
So you can send the item, but poor Mark's not getting it.
- Oh, no kidding.
I mean, in my son's birthdays coming up,
and I was singing about, I was like,
oh, if we're gonna send it like a postcard to people,
I was like, I don't have anyone's address,
like we, you know, like, I don't need one.
I would have to go figure out all my friend's addresses.
I'm like, maybe I can just go borrow my,
like who sent, who got married last?
Like who's got the most updated list, you know?
Like it's such an important part of,
all not just our business lives,
all of our lives have updated accurate information, right?
- Exactly.
I mean, because it kind of leads into like privacy preferences,
right, which is a big deal.
Even I would say in B2B, it didn't used to be like 10 years ago,
people could buy less, no problem.
And now that's, you know, you just can't do that.
And it's also think about it like Amazon does it so well.
It's like the best companies know you through your patterns
and data, not so much, you know, what you're telling them.
And those are the companies that are winning.
And so, you know, I do predict that will become more
and more critical in all companies,
but I definitely think like you see B2C,
I mean, retailers have always loved the way in that area.
They have to.
- Yeah, yeah, you can't sort of like paper mishay
over it with sales.
In the way you can in enterprise,
but like you can't, you actually can't anymore, right?
Like that's part of the thing.
It's like you actually never were really able to.
You just, you know, there are certain companies
that are more data driven and those companies were beating you
and you didn't know it yet.
- Exactly.
It's like when I was little kid, like the choices on TV
were like you could watch five things.
But now that's not the case, you actually have to have good shows.
- Yeah, and now to continue the analogy,
then you had a ton of different options.
And then, but at least they were all channels.
Now it's a bunch of different, you know,
streaming platforms, but the content is far, far superior.
- Yeah, it's just figuring out a way to get to it
as borderline impossible.
- Exactly, that's the next frontier, business idea.
- Yeah, exactly.
Okay, what about your marketing strategy?
How do you think about it holistically?
- Yeah, so the first thing I'd say about that
is for people listening and I see this,
gosh, all the time, I think folks will work at a company
and they're like, well, that playbook worked really well here.
And I'm just gonna pop it right on over.
Just like a sticker, just gonna stick the same thing here.
And I think for us, like I always look at like,
what is our business?
What are we selling?
What's the price point?
And so for us we're large enterprise.
So we use our strategy is definitely a lot of account-based
marketing and selling.
So we're very, we have a very targeted ICP
because not everybody in the world
is going to be a perfect customer for TILIUM.
So we've spent a lot of time really making sure
the ICP's accurate up to date,
that the customers and the industries we've picked retain,
we see good upsell, and then we focus on,
using an ABM strategy to make sure that they're aware of us
and then engage them.
- Clicking a little bit further into that,
clicking in, come on in.
- Clicking in.
- Yeah, right.
I promised myself, I would never say that on this podcast.
I sure, sure, you're org to go after,
to go after all that market.
- Yeah, so for us, we,
I would answer it really specifically for that in particular.
Like I think like, obviously we have a group
that thinks about content.
We have a team that thinks about all our digital programs,
but we really, I also own the SDR team as well.
And so the way we really pursue accounts
is an SDR and AE and a marketer,
and I have ABM marketers that think of them
in the olden days, they were field marketers,
but now I'd say that they do so much more
than just like targeted field events.
And so these pods meet weekly,
and they basically look at the accounts and the people
and make sure that we're doing all the right things,
reaching out to not one person.
One thing that I will say that I think everyone knows,
but we have just so much internal data on the more people
that we engage with, the win rate goes up.
Like for us, the win rate goes up,
it's like a 40% increase when we have 16 or more people.
That's not any like multi-threading.
Absolutely.
And I still see companies that like,
well, we talk to so and so,
and they said there's not maybe an interest or a need,
and it's like, but in enterprise selling,
you've got to look at the multiple folks,
and you have to be persistent.
It's not just going to be like a one and done thing.
So yeah, we definitely have this pod structure
for the team that I think is working well,
and I'm not going to say it was easy.
It took us time to set it up and to get it optimized.
I mean, I've been at the company over four years,
so I don't want people to think,
came in, just did that right out of the gate.
It took time for people to believe in it,
but I think it's working well.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
How many people do you think are like doing the pod type approach
to this?
Not as many as should.
I think there's a lot of people that have like ABM teams,
but there's still too much separation
from like the SDR partner, Oregon sales.
It's kind of like, hey, the marketing team did this thing,
but we're still over here doing our own set of activities.
Yeah.
And I think marketers in some ways are to blame for that,
because they don't sometimes quite understand
what sales needs to be successful.
And so, I guess the answer is not as many as should
that should follow that structure for ABM.
You have to be like lock and step with your sales person
and SDR if that's your, if that's your motion.
And do you think, do you think that that's like a one,
like literally one, and for you,
could be different, obviously, for other people, it's different.
So I would do the whole first segment.
But do you think that that's like a one-to-one thing,
like one marketer for every AE?
So, I mean, we have one marketer
and they have multiple AE's.
So, I mean, in a perfect world, gosh, that'd be great,
but no one's gonna be staffed or funded that way.
I mean, we would love it, but no.
So, I basically have, think of it as we have different RVPs
in North America, and we have this in Europe
and elsewhere as well.
But we have one marketer for the West RVP Central,
Southeast and Northeast.
That's how we have it structured.
And that works well.
They're busy folks.
I'll tell you that.
Yeah, well, yeah, yeah.
That's, yeah, I didn't know if sort of like, maybe
for the mega accounts, diamond accounts, however,
you classify those, that those particular ones had like,
you know, like one-to-one relationship or something like that.
I have done that in the past, to be honest.
So at my time at Mark,
how do we did have a few situations like that
for our top-top tier accounts?
Like really where it's like you're looking at 10 accounts.
I will say it to you Liam, we do not have that right now.
Yeah, okay, cool.
Any pitfalls with sort of that,
that, you know, your team approach
to this sort of the pod approach?
Yeah, so I think one of the pitfalls that I see
is there's so many signals today,
like people are like, oh, I have my G2 signals.
I have my intent whether you're using, you know,
there's different intent tools that I'm sure your listeners use.
There's, you know, website activity.
There's all these things.
And I think one thing I hear from the sellers over and over
is like, please consolidate that.
So we kind of know where we should be focusing
because no one has the time.
Even if they're interested,
no one has the time to just like look at 50 different things
and then make sense of it.
So I think one of the things our team has focused on a lot
that we didn't initially was really consolidating signals.
So taking all of those and we actually built sort of a,
kind of a little system in Marquetta
where we can basically spit out like,
it's the summary of that intent.
So that way that people just are less overwhelmed.
Because I mean, if you're working multiple counts
or it just gets to be really tricky.
And so that's one learning.
I'd say the other learning is,
and this is just kind of common sense.
It's like marketing can't be the order taker.
Like it really has to be the sales person that's the quarterback,
but marketing has to come in with a point of view.
Like, hey, you know, you're talking to a lot of people
in the pharma space.
Let's make sure that we're doing x, y, and z.
We've got this amazing workshop.
We have this great piece of content come in with a viewpoint
versus like, hey, you just wait and have somebody tell me what to do.
And I think those are some learnings that I've definitely,
everything goes better if you can consolidate signals
and then the marketer has a strong point of view
and does their homework.
They're not just there to like throw a field of that.
What do you think about, you know,
a lot of people are talking about sort of this increased research
of like the 95% of time that you're not buying anything.
So how are you getting in front of people
during that time versus, you know, that the 5% when they are?
Yeah.
And I think for us, it goes back to our brand.
And we've really focused on being the trusted advisor
for people that we engage with.
So I always think the best way to get in front of somebody
is to help them with a problem.
And you know, especially in B2B, there's so much where people
lead with the tech.
It's like, here's this amazing thing.
But in many cases, especially the more, you know,
a senior you get and in the conversations you have, no one cares.
It's like, I don't really care how my food gets cooked.
Like, I don't care about every detail of the oven.
Just make sure it tastes great.
And I think that's something people lose sight of.
So really, really focusing on content
through different channels that helps people with big pain
points they have.
And for us, like, we spend a lot of time identifying,
like, you know, third party cookie loss, like privacy.
How can you be personal while still upholding privacy?
How can you make sure that you can create in the moment
experiences, like somebody's on, or you can imagine,
like a big retailing website.
You don't want to get, you know, display ads
when you've already bought a product.
Like, you bought some cool, you know, sneakers
and then you're getting marketed later.
You're like, that's weird.
So it's like, just making sure that we do everything we can
that's helpful at the right time and making sure
it's at the right level.
So, you know, if somebody's just learning about us,
like, I'm not going to hit them with,
hey, watch this two hour video.
No one's got that kind of time.
So it's thinking about, you know, how we can make sure
that we're marrying what is needed at each of those
touch points and being helpful.
- Yeah.
Any other thoughts on strategy?
- Yeah, I think it's really important not to do strategy
in a vacuum as interesting and as fun as that is.
And I know that some people that love it
and they can whiteboard all day.
But the best thing I think people can do is talk to customers
and immerse yourself in the audience
and get around them and understand the person.
And that'll tell you almost everything you need to know, right?
It's like, what do they care about?
What, what, you know, how do they get promoted?
What are they nervous about?
What, just kind of understanding their day
and then that can impact your strategy,
I think profoundly and understanding your buying group, right?
Like somebody, I think sometimes we think buying group
each person has equal power and they often don't, right?
It's often somebody who says, we need this.
Somebody else who has to kind of check the boxes.
So, hey, make it easy for them.
Then it might be somebody else that's the user.
And so again, I just go back to like,
you've got to know who you're selling to.
And in the world we're in today, I mean,
it's in a way never been easier, but people still don't do it.
And I sometimes see folks develop a strategy
and they're like, this is great.
We all love it internally.
(laughs)
But you're not selling to you.
So that's what I would say.
- That's how I always feel about content calendars
or it's like content calendars are always the thing
that's the easiest for you to create.
And that's important, dude.
You gotta be able to create stuff.
But I'm like, yeah, in January,
when we're talking about whatever data leaks,
or something like that,
and you're like, wait a second,
but that's not how people do stuff.
- Yeah, well in January,
I'm thinking about data leaks and in February.
Yeah, it's like nobody, you know,
I guess you kind of need to have a plan,
but I also think keeping like high level strategic pillars
as smart, like kind of getting more to like,
we know these are the core pains for people.
Those are probably not going away.
And making sure that we're thinking about those.
And then I don't know, maybe developing calendars out
off of that, but I just think people also have to stay flexible,
you know, things change as we've seen.
The last few years you could have never predicted ever.
- Yeah, the lightest team in terms of agility
are the ones that have been winning a lot.
- I agree.
- All right, let's get to the playbook.
Is where you open up the playbook
and talk about the tactics that help you win.
What are your three channels or tactics
that are your most uncutable budget items?
- My most uncutable, well, again, I'll start by saying,
make sure your playbook matches your Go-To-Horg
that you make sure that is tight.
Like if you're PLG, you're probably not doing ABM.
- Yeah.
- And so I'm just gonna say that first.
But I think for us, like the way I look at channels
is sort of like, they're the vehicles you put the gas in.
And so I think the first and foremost thing
that I cannot cut is really great content
because that goes in a lot of my vehicles.
And it's like, that to me is everything.
So that might be what I put in my social channels
or other things.
So I think content, I then would probably say,
some of my better digital channels.
We have great success, I think, with early engagement
on LinkedIn.
That's really working well for us.
Again, assuming that we're helpful.
It's a great way to dialogue with people
that maybe have historically been hard to reach.
And then I definitely say for us,
we have great success later on with field events
and bringing in customers and then net new folks
and letting them interact.
And almost even having like workshops.
So it's like, hey Ian, like you're here to learn about X, Y, and Z.
That's what we're gonna do.
We're gonna spend 30 minutes.
You walk out knowing that skill.
You wanna learn how to bake the best cookies
we're here to teach you, right?
Like, and it's solving a problem in a very clean
and organized way.
And those are things I couldn't cut.
I love how you said that in a clean and organized way.
Because I think that like, we all instinctively know
that how to's are important.
And I feel like you could triple the number of how to's
that you do as an organization and be way better.
Because it's like, and have better marketing.
Yeah, I've been obsessed with Masterclass recently,
which I have been telling every single person
that I talk to on the street.
And the reason why I've been so obsessed with it
is because it's like kind of quarter my philosophy
of life of like learning from the best people.
But also editing is fantastic.
Everything, right?
Yeah.
And it's like how little to we in marketing freaking edit.
It's like, don't write edit, you know what I mean?
Well, another way to look at it
that I always tell my team is reduce the friction, reduce it.
People have such limited bandwidth these days.
They're, you know, most people have so much going on in their lives.
And in the more hoops you make them jump through whether it's like,
oh, like, it's a workshop.
But there's a 40 minute cocktail hour and all the things, right?
And you're like, look, like I can get cocktails like with my friends.
And I probably would rather do that.
So be here for the workshop.
And again, maybe that's me and my kind of personality type.
But I think it's so important just to again,
going back to your buyer.
Now, if they love that, that's different, but you're right.
It's like sometimes there's so much fanfare.
And you're just like, can we just like get rid of that
and get to the core of what matters to people?
And again, reduce the friction for them.
Make it easy.
Couldn't even anymore.
I've been thinking about this about the exactly what you just said,
which is sort of like nobody wants to catch up with strangers.
And there's a way to do that.
That's actually not knowing.
There's a way to do that.
And there's a really good.
And I was advising someone the other day that was getting into events.
And I was like, go as far curated as you could possibly get.
Like purposely put every single guest there, purposely invite
each guest there, perfect, like go as far curated as you can get
if they're people who don't know each other.
So they know that they're going to be in something
that's like built purposely for them.
Don't just like open up the floodgates and do XYZ.
And then I was thinking, if you want to go the other direction,
which is sort of like the throw a rager, throw a party,
sort of approach, it's like, if you go that way,
I was thinking about this.
People should just pay for reunions.
I'm like, yo, let's do a market over union.
And just get a bunch of people like, we'll pay for it.
And you'll just can get just hang out, just know
that we were the one who paid for the beer, or the wine,
or whatever.
And I'm like, if you just did that, you know, like,
and like, by the way, like, we're going to have a salesperson
sitting over here with an orange hat on if you want to talk
to anyone about sales.
But it's like, I would be--
it would be so much easier to do that.
And then the people can catch up with their friends
and have a low-pressure situation.
But people always try to get caught in the middle
with like these sort of like doing two things at once.
It's like, either be a party or be helpful content or--
But decide.
Like decide what is you're trying to do.
And I think that you're so right.
Like so many people, it's like they blend too many things.
And you're like, what is this?
It's almost like my favorite statement
is like with websites when so many people have opinions.
You're like, then nothing's good.
Yeah.
It's like, it's like, if you can't incorporate
the opinions of 10 people on this, or it's
you end up with something that's not great for anyone.
So you're totally right.
Yeah, it's like what--
and our entire culture is going this way,
because we have limited attention spans.
But we have limited attention spans in terms
of things that don't match.
So it's like, if you go to a--
this is why it's like you go to ESPN,
and then if they're talking about politics,
and you're like, no, I just came here for sports.
That's why people rub on those sort of things.
So it's like, if you're going to an event--
and this is why I think big events have really, really
struggled--
is because they're trying to be everything for everybody.
And it's like, that's just not really what it is anymore.
And people just don't have that kind of time, I think.
It's like, their time is so--
it's like, that's one thing I feel like people walked out
of the pandemic with.
It's like, hey, I actually can spend time on hobbies and things.
I'm like, hey, I don't need to go to 10 big conferences
a year.
And by the way, I could have done that
with those same people at a smaller event
that was more meaningful.
So I mean, you're right.
It's, again, it goes back to knowing who you're selling to
and what they care about.
And don't do the bait and switch on them.
It's kind of like--
we all see that with LinkedIn, too.
It's like, you see somebody and you read it.
Oh, wow.
And that's your picture from 30 years ago, little different.
And so I think it's important for just be direct with people.
And your number is maybe lower.
But if it's the right people, that's good.
Again, this is more for enterprise.
But--
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and everything does not have to have a freaking CTA.
It's like, we forgot the--
collectively, this is sounding like a therapy session.
But it's like, we forgot about the 80/20 rule.
It's like--
Wow.
Like, every post does not have to have a CTA.
No, it really doesn't.
It really doesn't.
I know.
I completely agree with that.
And I think that there-- yeah, there's a lot of times
you just want to tell people, just stop.
Just stop.
I just want to get this and don't make it so hard for me
where I have to fill in 50 things.
Or yeah, not everything needs a CTA.
That should be a T-shirt.
I know.
Yeah, that's--
I'll--
You won't actually answer that.
That'll be the pipeline visionaries.
No, I don't know.
I did it.
We did a sure one time with my old podcast.
We did it.
Told the story before.
But I did the meme where it's like the from an point
diamond where it's like, they downloaded my white paper.
So things are getting pretty serious.
And I put that on a T-shirt.
And I had like 100 people come over to me like, where
should I buy that?
I'm like, I just made it for this.
Just wait it.
It's the best.
Like, that's another thing, too.
People need to make more funny T-shirts.
I feel like we're kind of in a little bit of a dearth of that
right now.
I haven't seen a good T-shirt in a while, to be honest.
You're so right.
I haven't seen a good T-shirt in a long time either.
Not good.
Yeah.
Even some of the larger conferences,
I see some things that come back.
And I'm like, there's just a logo.
And it's not even like a nice shirt.
Yeah.
OK, what about a budget item that's
your most cuttable that's your something
you're not investing in, fading away, whatever?
Yeah.
I think this year, I mean, the last few years,
I think people have asked a lot, like, what can you cut?
What can you optimize?
And I know some people don't like that,
but in a way, it forces you to be thoughtful.
I don't think it's the worst thing.
I would say for us, we've definitely
cut some of the larger trade shows like we just discussed.
I think that especially our team is global.
And I know some of my international teams,
like they used to do a lot of these big, big conferences.
But I'm like, yeah, you get loads of lots of numbers.
It makes people feel good in the moment.
But then when you really look at the return on them,
they're not always the best.
And I know some people can say, oh, you need to be there
for a brand and having conversations.
But I'd argue you can really do a lot of other things
that get you the same impact.
So I definitely think we've cut back there.
Yeah.
Teeny budgets brutal.
Just no air on it.
Yeah.
And one of the things-- and I'll tell you this--
we've seen some people say we can't travel to your events
because of our carbon footprint.
And they have a limit on half of the average.
I mean, in a way is a positive thing.
So I think so many companies now see they can be as efficient
doing things remotely.
So yeah, I think a lot of the big events.
I mean, not to say that there aren't some that are great
and there's value.
But yeah, in general, there's a lot that we've cut back on there.
Yeah.
My piece on the big events is like, I
think there are 100% still worth it in some ways.
And there are 100% too expensive in other ways.
And both can be right.
Like, that's the thing.
Yeah.
It is the premium sports car, right?
It's like, if you want to have a premium sports car,
you have to pay for it.
It's like, if you don't want it, then it's like, yeah,
to everyone else, it's too expensive.
It's too expensive.
Yeah.
Or something that we do.
Sometimes it's like, we might not-- and what I mean
is we may still be at the event, but we'll do a dinner
with a partner, right?
We don't need to go in and sponsor this huge booth.
We can still be at the event.
You can still network with people and have a dinner
where you invite your key folks that you want to be talking to.
Like, then you're owning that attention.
And so you're right.
Like, there are ways you can still do events
where large events were that make sense.
But I think what I mean is kind of the classic playbook
of, like, oh, we're getting a booth.
We're sending 20 people like that.
We're not-- no one's-- I don't feel like many people
are doing that anymore.
Yeah.
And I think it's interesting because the people who now
invest in those channels might have more outsized results
because they can now they're--
they probably have way more sway with the sponsor
or with the vendor.
They're like, hey, we're pretty born here.
Yeah, exactly.
OK, what about experiments?
Yeah.
I think I like this question a lot,
because I think even in times where people may not have the same
resources like budget or people,
you still have to experiment.
Some of the best things we've done
have been experiments where it's like people have been
like a little leery.
I don't know if that's going to work.
And it ends up being the best thing.
I think for us, like, again, I mentioned
we island our SDR team.
So a lot of our experiments are there.
We're using some new AI tools to see if we can make our SDRs
really more efficient in that they
were spending more of their day doing less remedial things
and more high-value things.
And so far, two of those experiments are going pretty well.
So that's been exciting to see.
And then I definitely think this is--
you're going to laugh at this one.
But I'm still big on--
we see great results from email.
But I always ask, you know, guys, we
have to do subject blind tests.
And we have to just make sure that we're
looking at different bits of content, what's working, what's
not.
It's just having the--
it's like brushing your teeth.
It's like standard basic stuff that people are like,
oh, do I really have to do it?
You do.
Because what you notice is there's so many times
we'll look at something.
We'll be like, create landing page.
This one's not as good.
And we're wrong.
The data tells us something different.
So that ongoing testing, I think, is really critical.
But yeah, I'd say some of the biggest different things
that we're testing is really in the AI space.
Yeah, that's awesome.
And I can tell you this.
Yeah, they go ahead.
I was just going to be my next question.
I knew that.
Yeah, so we're looking at a tool called Tuesday SO, that really
helps test you.
So say, I can say, I'm pursuing Ian, and it will help
look up all your information.
And what's out there about you, like, oh, Ian,
has this great podcast.
He's presented this place.
So I can then craft an email that's really targeted and relevant.
And then copy AI is another tool that we're in the early stages
with, but it's been proven to be pretty great.
And of course, there's always the tools like Canva that
have some AI built into them.
But it's just any of those kind of things that make--
that free the team up to be more strategic
and get rid of some of the busy work is really nice.
So that's an area that I'd say I'm really experimenting with.
Canva's AI is getting cool.
It's cool.
I love Canva.
I have to say, they really picked a pain point
that a lot of marketers have, and they nailed it.
And it's easy to use.
It's great.
Yeah.
We are power users of Canva.
Yeah.
And it's like we have, however many people working on Canva
at our company for those little tweaks.
And then you have actual designers that
are doing the bigger, hairier things.
It's like, oh my goodness.
It's the best.
But you don't need 40 designers anymore.
That's what's great.
Because sometimes we've all been there really.
Can't you just make this one color change your tweak?
It's like, whoa, that's going to take, again, Jennifer,
a week to do that.
And now it's like, that's just not the issue.
So I love that.
So good.
And you're so right about just like some of the AI pieces
that are in the existing tools being great.
How do you view your website?
I view our website as sort of like, this
is an out-of-you-probably-here-lot.
It's almost like your house.
It's like it's where people come to learn more about you.
And it's your opportunity to have a great dinner party
or one that's not so awesome, where people don't want to come back.
And so I always think of it as sort of the place that people
go to get their questions answered.
It's like our house.
So I want to always make sure that our messaging is clear.
And when people are searching for something
they can find it.
And websites are tricky.
I mean, they're a full-time job to make sure
that they're always optimized and working well.
I feel like I can always find flaws with even our website.
But that's how-- that's the vision of it--
is make sure that things are easy to find, accessible,
and people can answer their questions.
Get their questions answered, yeah.
Yeah, it is your house.
It's funny that there's nothing that's even
close to comparing to that.
Unless you have-- unless you're like consumer
and you have your own app, then it's totally different world.
But--
What do you mean?
Yeah.
Then you have a website and the app and the store.
Yeah.
You can see a lot.
Yeah, exactly.
Wonderful.
Any other thoughts on tactics or spending money or not
spending money or--
I think the key who's spending money is--
it's even the language that you use.
And I always tell that one thing that I've done at Telia
Malod is I always say, look, we're like an investment banker.
We're not paid as well.
We don't wear as many vests.
But it's essentially what we do, right?
It's like, it's my job to take the money that the company gives me.
Which most marketers have the biggest budget of anyone
in the company.
It's a responsibility.
And I think about where are my best bets?
And that's my job, really.
It's like, look, am I going to get the biggest return
from this one digital channel?
Or is it going to be this field event?
What is that?
And I take that really seriously.
And I think when you speak in terms of investment and return,
I feel like that's a better conversation.
So I kind of steer clear of like, oh, we're spending this.
Or we're doing this.
It's like, look, you've given me X amount of dollars.
It's my job to drive a certain amount of return there.
And I'm always looking at that portfolio and trying to optimize it.
And so what's also great about looking at data in that way,
like if you give me $1, I can give you 10 and pipeline,
it's awesome.
Because if somebody says, look, you're going to get $0.50,
well, you know what your pipeline is going to be.
It's just simple math.
And I think that takes away so much emotion for people.
It's like, look, if you cut my budget by this much,
here's how that's going to impact pipeline.
Now do we want to do that or not?
And then it's more of like a calm business discussion
versus like panic.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah, I feel the same way.
So I mean, I've always sort of talked about things
like a portfolio for that exact reason of like, you know,
you're making bets.
And we recently sort of rolled out this,
our structure of this of like short shows and moonshots
and thinking of like, if you're building a portfolio,
what's the marketing activities that can return the whole fund?
What are the marketing activities that are like investing in bonds?
You know, it's like every single day.
Yeah, it's like you got to have a blend.
And I just feel like so often if you look at a team
that is underperforming that they just have,
there either have so many bets.
And it's like, you know, they're not picking.
Yeah.
And it's like, and then they don't have the things
that can get like really big upside.
And I think there's a lot of like brand bets
that really are not high upside bets.
They're important.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, they can be, they're really important.
And it's interesting.
I think that that's one thing that is changing more in B2B
is people having more appreciation for brand.
Because what I always tell people, it's like,
it isn't really brand or demand.
And I hate when I see that on LinkedIn.
It's like, which is it?
It's like, no, like it's, again, it's the taco.
The shell is the brand and it's not a taco without the shell.
So it's really is about creating that preference, right?
And I, it's like, one thing I did when I joined Telia
and I said to my exact team, I'm like,
think about when you go in the market.
And it's like the row of cereal or the row of ice cream.
It's like, it's all ice cream at the end of the day.
It's all gonna taste pretty good.
But why do you pick something over something else?
Like, what is that?
That's brand, right?
It's, it's, I can't take credit for this,
but it's that it's the aftertaste, right?
Of the experience.
And it's why you go back for some things
and why others are like, nope, never mind.
So it's a really important thing for teams
to always be thinking about that too.
And that can be in the form of just your content.
How you, you know, even this podcast,
like you, you have a certain style
that, you know, people like talking to it,
makes it fun.
It's a good brand, right?
And so that's an area that I think can be to be,
people, people need to make sure
they're investing some there.
And what some companies I see where they're not doing great,
it's like, hey, we have all this in digital.
We're doing all these things,
but it's like, you just seem like you're saying
the same thing as everybody else.
It's just boring chicken soup, you know?
- And it's all delivered via means that are,
that are both cost controlled, but also cost constrained, right?
So it's like, if all you're spending is on
tons of digital advertising, for example,
it's like inherently that is all capped.
There's like no upside can ever be achieved of PPC, right?
There's no like, hey, this PPC was like 400 X ROI.
It's like, it's not possible.
Whereas like, you know, I don't know,
if you took a taxi cab and shot it up into space,
it's like, you could have a really big outsize result.
I think that so much of just like,
well, we're gonna track it all to the end degree.
It's like, yeah, but like, has an ad ever taken you
in the 17 other people that you need to buy
an enterprise software with and like,
got you just so energized that you're ready to rock?
It's like, no.
Yeah, I think when people kind of take a step back
and they think about it, it's like,
they don't think about the logic of it in a way.
It's like, it is a really interesting point.
I think more people should really kind of stop
and think about that because I do feel like what you see
is like, there is a point of diminishing returns.
Like some people are like, oh, well, this one channel
and program is doing so well.
Why didn't you keep investing?
Well, there's a point where I can keep putting in more money
just like you said with paper click and it's gonna,
you're gonna be spending more and more,
but the results are gonna be less great.
So maybe there's some other place that you could be investing
that you could get a great lift
and that's kind of our jobs, right?
It's being that investment banker,
but for the business, really, that's our best.
All right, let's get to the dust up.
So we're talking about healthy tension,
but that's whether your board or sales team
is your competitors or anyone else, how do you do?
You have any memorable dust up in your career?
Oh, yeah, there's a few that I can think of.
One that I would say that is an interesting one
is sometimes when one that I can think of in particular,
a few come to mind, but this one is kind of more current
is when you're sometimes working with a product team
and it's like what they end up giving you,
it's so feature heavy and it's like really getting them
to think about let's not just fall in love
with the technology, what does the end user care about
and why am I excited about this?
And it's interesting sometimes when you push people
and it's like, I don't know that they've always even thought
about it, like some people they, especially like in software,
they love the technology so much,
like what can do this great thing?
Really, but the person using it, does it save them time?
Does it make them more credible on their team?
Does it, like let's get to that?
And I feel that that's a conversation, E,
and I have more than I'd love to have.
I feel like it's kind of the Simon Sennix, why?
But I still in technology, in the technology space,
people gravitate to it because then again,
they love technology, so do I.
But you always have to boil it back to like,
like simple messaging and like what's in it for the user?
Like what do they care about?
And if you can't do that, then you kind of need
to rethink things.
And so I guess the dust up is, it's an area
that I can be a little, we talked about Saurapatch kids.
I can be a little sour and spicy there.
It's like, I can't let that one go.
Like it makes my life hard, right?
Like I don't want to market something
that like the benefit statements paragraph.
No one's reading that.
Totally.
That's reading what.
(laughing)
Yeah, I was one of our customers
who was moving off of a vendor
and it's 20,000 dollar investment, which is no slouch.
And it just boils down to, they're like,
why would they switch?
And it's sort of like just boils down to like,
they would rather do something else of that money.
Not like, if there's no need, there's no whatever.
It's just they want to do something else of that money.
Like they just want to.
And like that's the sort of thing where you're like,
you go take that back to a product person,
they're like, but which feature?
I'm like, dude, it ain't about features.
Like, you know what I mean?
Yeah, it's true.
And I think so that's an area that I feel like,
I'm, I will battle and I kind of push on that
because I think it makes people better.
But I do think that it can get spicy
and it's not always an easy discussion with people.
All right, let's get to our final segment, quick hits.
These are quick questions and quick answers.
Just like how quickly qualified helps companies generate
pipeline, you can go to qualified.com to learn more
about really the best tool in the history of the internet.
Qualified, go to qualified.com to learn more.
Other than Tilium, of course, you go to Tilium.com.
Check out.
It's a great one.
Let's met CDP.
All right, Heidi, quick hits, are you ready?
Yeah, let's do it.
What's a hidden talent or skill that's not on your resume?
I read people very well.
I think I understand people and what motivates them.
Do you have a favorite book podcast or TV show
that you'd recommend?
Yes, Power of Moments by Dan Heath
and the Happiness Imperative.
Both like if you're in marketing, read them.
Great books.
Favorite non-marketing hobby that indirectly makes
you a better marketer.
So this one isn't necessarily a hobby,
but I'm a parent of twins, twin girls.
And what it has taught me is the importance
of communicating in the right way to your audience.
And so what works for one group or demographic
may not work for another.
And it's your problem.
So getting good at it and being clever with,
and you ultimately can get what you need done,
but got to know your audience.
They help me practice that daily.
No matter how similar you may think they are.
They're not.
That's funny.
If you weren't in marketing or business at all,
what do you think you'd be doing?
Fashion designer or singer, for sure.
Maybe a bit of both.
Maybe both?
Design your own designs.
We'd get the mega-alip.
Right?
What is your best advice for a first time CMO?
I have two.
The first one is when you join a company,
develop a plan with your short and long-term items,
meaning some things that you're going to get done right away,
because people are excited.
You're there.
They want to see the wins, but not everything
can get done in a month or even two, right?
So show the two parallel tracks.
So they understand, wow, they're really
effective getting these short-term things done.
But these other things may take longer.
That's one.
And two is internal marketing.
Do not forget the importance of it.
Come up with an email that you send every week that
highlights the top.
We do the top five things people need to know.
And they're meant for the revenue teams to be successful.
And it's like, I never want anyone to say
we don't know what marketing is doing.
So internal marketing.
Heidi, it has been wonderful having on the show.
For listeners, you can go to telium.com.
Check them out.
Leaders in the first ever Gardner, Magic Quadrant
for customer data platform.
Pretty cool.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah, any final thoughts, anything to plug?
I think my final thought, it's not really a plug.
But for everybody out there, I would just say,
it's so important to stay curious.
And I think in my role, something I see a lot of people say
is like, gosh, who should I have as my mentor?
Or what's the answer?
There's no magical book, right?
There's no perfect thing that's
going to give you all the answers.
It's just sort of like being curious and trying
and not being afraid to fail.
And so many people listening to this, you can do it.
I see some of the most successful people,
and they're not smarter or better.
They're just willing to try and they're curious.
So that's what I would say.
Fan, fantastic.
Thanks so much, Heidi.
We will talk to you soon.
You bet, Ian.
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