Using Incentives to Drive Impact
Dana Barrett, VP of Marketing at Tremendous, shares about incentivizing your ideal customer.
[MUSIC]
Welcome to Pipeline Visionaries.
I'm Ian Faizan, CEO of Caspian Studios.
And today we are joined by a special guest, Dana, how are you?
>> I'm well, how are you?
>> I am doing great, excited to have you on the show,
excited to chat tremendous.
You're marketing background and everything in between.
So tell me what was your first job marketing?
>> Well, I have an interesting background story.
I started out in investment banking, professional services,
worked in healthcare investment banking, and it's a really grueling job.
So I went to business school and my goal was to switch into marketing.
So I studied healthcare management and marketing.
And my first marketing job was my summer internship while I was at Wharton.
I worked in the marketing department at Merck.
And now flash forward to today, tell us a little bit more about what it means
to
be VP of marketing at tremendous.
>> Well, tremendous is a newer company, we're startup.
And so my main goal as VP of marketing is to create high quality pipeline for
sales and we're at the beginning of this journey.
You'll hear me say that a lot.
And a lot of what I'm really focused on is defining our ICP,
figuring out what story we're telling in the market, building a channel
strategy.
So we can reach our target customers and then making sure we have robust
reporting.
So I can measure the ROI of all of my marketing investments.
>> Let's get to our first segment, the Trust Tree, where we can go and
feel honest and trusted and you can share the deepest, darkest pipeline secrets
Zoom it out, tell us a little bit more about what Tremendous does.
>> Well, Tremendous is a scalable, global platform that enables businesses to
send
thousands of gift cards and rewards to recipients in over 200 countries.
It is super easy, you just need to tell us who.
All we need is an email address or a phone number, how much.
And we automate the rest from sending, reporting, tracking.
And the real power of Tremendous is the recipient experience.
Because recipients get the gift of choice, they can choose from a range of
options from PayPal,
Venmo, direct deposit, prepaid Visa cards, charitable donations, and
even gift cards to their favorite retailer like Amazon or Starbucks.
And on top of that, we offer customer support.
So if people have trouble accessing their rewards, we take care of that.
So you're not dealing with angry customers or research participants.
We do that on your behalf.
And all of this is at the low cost of zero.
So it's free.
Our platform is free to use.
You only pay what you send.
And that's Tremendous.
>> It is indeed Tremendous, much like how Tremendous your marketing is,
which we'll get into here in a second.
So tell us what types of customers do you all have?
What size are the customers?
What do those look like?
So as you can imagine, given what our product does, we could target a range of
customers across industries, functions, use cases.
And so my number one priority when I joined Tremendous, which was actually not
that
long ago, about four or five months ago, is defining our ICP.
And right now we have three target ICPs that we're going after.
So researchers, these are typically UX researchers,
often at mid-market companies, some enterprise market research agencies,
and they use our product to reward people for participating in research studies
Our second ICP is marketers, demand gen, growth marketers.
And they're using our tool to offer incentives or rewards as part of customer
promotion.
So think cashback with purchase or referrals or an incentive to sign up or
come to our event and we'll give you a gift card, things like that.
Typically, again, at mid-market size companies, some enterprise.
And then the third ICP is HR.
They use our tool, again, mid-market customers sometimes enterprise.
They use our tool to provide employee incentives.
So for things like spiff or holiday gifts or could be like incentives to
participate in wellness programs.
And what do the different buying committees look like for this?
Who's the person who signs the free dotted line for tremendous?
It's actually usually the line of business owner.
So we're a much simpler, we are technically SaaS, FinTech,
we're kind of across the line between the two.
But unlike the purchasing decisions that happen with other SaaS tools,
it's much simpler for tremendous, in part because it's free.
So often it's the line of business owner, but for our larger customers who are
running large volumes through our platform, we actually do engage with IT.
We have an API and we sometimes, even for the biggest spenders,
will customize the workflows.
So it's even easier.
And we sometimes work with finance because we do offer large volume discounts
and we negotiate them with finance and sometimes the legal team.
And I know that obviously, like you said, you've only been there a handful of
months here, but what does your marketing team look like now?
And how did you think about structuring the organization?
So I did make some adjustments to the marketing team after I joined.
We are a small company, so tremendous, just so you know, is 85 people.
And actually a large portion of the people in marketing and even in sales
were hired within the past year.
We have a relatively large marketing team, so it's about 12 people for
the size of company we are.
But because we're such a small team, I have three main pillars.
One is product marketing and brand, and they're really tasked with
who's our ICP, what are their pain points, what's our story.
And they're also thinking about our content strategy because you can't tell
that story unless you have really good content that can work across the
different channels
that you're in.
I have a growth marketing team that's thinking about our channel strategy,
which mainly involves events, paid, organic, and life cycle.
And then marketing apps, which is actually my favorite team and the unsung hero
of
the marketing org.
And they're making sure the infrastructure works that we're passing the right
data back to Google for our paid ads and, of course, setting up some reporting
for us.
How do you think about your marketing strategy and how you go to market?
Well, before I answer that question, I want to give you a little bit of context
So we are at the very beginning of this journey, our company became tremendous
in 2018.
And we've really only started pivoting and leaning into go to market within the
past year or two.
And so from a marketing perspective, most of what we've done in the past is
search.
And then if you look at awareness, many people aren't aware of tremendous as a
brand,
but they're also not aware of the category.
So most people when they're sending out rewards and incentives, they work
directly
with vendors like PayPal or maybe they'll work with a specific vendor to offer
one gift card.
And that experience can involve a lot of fees.
It can be difficult because you have to know exactly where people are,
exactly what email address to use.
And you have to provide a whole host of other information and yada, yada, yada.
So it takes a lot of time and effort.
And the recipient experience is often sub-optimal, but most people don't know
there's a better way to do this.
So they're not out there searching for a solution.
So it's not going to be a surprise that my marketing strategy is very focused
on building our demand-gen engine.
So doing all the things we need to do to identify who we target, what we say,
but then making sure we have the right channel strategy so we can get people to
be aware
of our product and start to engage in a conversation with them.
And the channels that we are mainly focused on are paid and organic.
Some events, depending on the ICP, it doesn't work for all ICPs.
And then we also spend some time thinking about that partnership with sales,
making sure they know who our ICP is, making sure that we arm them with the
collateral,
the key studies, the talking points they need to close deals.
Yeah, and what does that connection from marketing to sales look like
and having those sales folks getting in front of those mid-market and
enterprise buyers?
Well, we're at the beginning of this journey.
I've probably said that a lot.
So our VP of sales, she started her job pretty much the same day I think I
started mine.
She was in a different role and she got promoted into VP of sales.
So I'm trying to start from a place of deep partnership
and aligning both our marketing strategy and her sales strategy.
And the first thing that I've really been focusing on is making sure we're
agreed
that on who we're selling to.
And we also try to spend time actually talking about how that's going.
So we identified our target ICPs.
We've kind of figured out what marketing is doing,
generating high quality pipeline.
Sales' job is to close that pipeline.
And we actually set up a weekly pipeline meeting where we look at the numbers
together.
And a lot of that discussion is around holding marketing accountable
for making sure we're hitting our numbers.
But then I also, we spend a lot of time just understanding are those deals
quality?
Like, is sales getting an increase in spam calls?
Are they finding that some of the deals that we're sending their way
are just not a good fit?
And then from a sales perspective, we talk about how effective they're being,
like how many meetings are having, how effective they're being at closing
the customers that they are interacting with.
And so just having both alignment on the strategy and having a forum
where we can just talk through issues as they arise real time
has kind of been my approach to date.
And so far, I think it's led us to at least be moving in the same direction.
You have to bring me back in a year so I can tell you how well it's worked,
though.
Right, indeed.
I think you have to bring back everybody in here to figure out how it's working
We're only working 12 months out anyways.
You know, you have a background in product marketing.
How do you think that like, you know, coming into this role,
knowing that you're strong there, but perhaps weaker in other areas?
How do you think about sort of like building the team
and building those, you know, core competencies of the marketing team?
Like, you know, you're showing that area.
Well, actually what's interesting is I spent a large chunk of my Korean product
marketing.
And when I started thinking about going after VP of marketing roles,
I actually realized I needed to beef up my understanding of everything
from marketing ops to growth marketing.
And so my last role, so I started out, my last company,
I started out running product marketing, and then I pivoted.
It was a lateral-ish move.
But I went to our head of growth, and I was like,
"I wanted to know everything you know I literally had this conversation."
Create a role in my team so we made something up.
You know, we were struggling with pipeline, made up a job,
and I spent over a year just studying.
I was working on, my job was to deliver inbound pipeline.
And I used that as a forum to talk to everyone on growth,
everyone on marketing ops about how do you generate pipeline,
how do you create quality pipeline, where does organic fit,
where does paid fit into that, how does content work as part of that.
So I got kind of like this mini-masters and growth marketing to man-gen
in that last year and a half at my last company.
And so now I actually feel like I can effectively lead a marketing organization
because I've been in the trenches, and I know how this sausage is made.
Indeed. Any other thoughts on strategy, marketing strategy,
how demand fits inside of that, or any other stuff strategy related?
The thing that comes to mind as I hear that question is,
having a strategy is key. And so I've spent a lot of years in tech,
and especially in recent history when there's been a lot of free money.
I feel like a lot of tech companies, at least the ones I worked at,
making choices, deciding who you are and are not going to go after, placing
bets,
and not trying to beat everything to everyone,
has not been like a focus or a strong suit. And so for me, from a marketing
perspective,
what I'm trying to figure out is who we're targeting.
And then I'm also trying to think carefully about like which channels we focus
on and which we don't,
and then iterating on that.
All right, let's get to our next segment, the playbook,
where we open up that playbook and talk about the tactics that help you win.
And I know that this, you know, it's a few months into this, but
you might not have all the answers, you might talk about stuff from previous
roles.
But what are your three channels or tactics that are your uncuttable budget
items?
Well, I actually did have to go through an exercise in budgeting and setting
our plan for 2024.
So I did have to make some cuts. The things that are uncuttable,
though, are organic. We are small teams, so we don't have someone in-house.
So I am paying an agency and that's uncuttable for me.
Paid. I do believe that paid still delivers some value, even with some of the
recent changes and,
anyways, cookies are dead. And the third is content.
So I'm actually investing a lot of time and money in content, both from a
figuring out what to say, conducting research to maybe have some compelling
stats,
but also in generating the content itself,
self, whether it's case studies or thought leadership, etc.
All right, let's dig into those a little bit. Why organic, what are the types
of stuff that
they are having folks make?
Well, we haven't really invested in organic up until very recently.
So for us, it's like basic stuff. We're figuring out how to fill out our
website.
If you've been on our website, you've probably noticed there's just things
missing.
So for example, if you want to know about our products or the features, you can
't find it on
our website. So adding in just missing content, a lot of our pages are very
beautiful.
We've redesigned them, but they've very little information.
So they're not really SEO optimized. So figuring out how to fill in the gaps in
our website and
optimize the content on our website so that it starts to rank for SEO.
The other thing that we're trying to figure out is, you know, how do we
generate content
around our blog that's compelling that's going to rank for different keywords.
And oh, by the way, remember when I said that people aren't really out there
searching for the
solution, it's really hard to figure out which keywords we should focus on,
prioritize.
So that's a part of this battle is figuring out which search terms to go after
where
people are not just searching for gift cards for, you know, to give their
friend, but
they're actually thinking about rewards in bulk for business related purposes.
So there's a whole host of things that we're trying to figure out across the
board.
Yeah. And then so sort of second bucket there being paid if you are, you know,
if you are trying to figure out those things, even though people aren't
necessarily searching
for them, how do you get creative there? How do you figure out what are the
things that people
would be searching for that give you some clues? So for paid, I mean, we pretty
much tapped out.
There are some people searching and we have, I think, tapped out on what we can
do from a
search perspective to go after those folks. So our search budget, we've maxed
out.
What we're starting to do is figure out how to run paid in other channels.
So there's two we're really focusing on. We're focusing on video because we
think that's a
great way to capture people, you know, awareness, top of funnel. We don't have
any video assets.
So one of the things that I've kicked off is building video ads and then
starting to run
them and test them in different channels to see what works for us from an
awareness perspective.
We're also experimenting with LinkedIn because we think there's some value
there,
but we haven't quite figured out how to make it work. So that's the other paid
channel that
we're really bullish on that we're starting to experiment with. And again,
there, we don't actually
have any ads that are probably built for LinkedIn. So we're actually starting
to really roll up our
sleeves and build out ads that are targeted at different ICPs. And then we're
kind of running
experiments to test everything from value props, the copy, the imagery that we
use like product UI
versus abstract, you know, images, things like that. And then content,
obviously, you know, you
know those personas well, the ones that you talked about. Obviously, you know,
research
marketing sales and the HR employee sort of recognition space. So three very
different groups
of people. How do you think about making content for those folks and making
that content that
actually, you know, stands out and resonates? I haven't quite figured that out
yet. And that's
one of the things I'm trying to figure out. Here's what I will say. Incentives,
regardless of your
use case, are a great way to drive impact, whether you're trying to grow
pipeline,
whether you're trying to drive sales, whether you want to make sure people
participate in your
studies and you can recruit people in, you know, global markets that you're
trying to figure out
how to get, you know, people to just respond or participate. And so based on
what we do,
we're starting to see some best practices or things that can actually position
you better to
reach your ultimate goal, which is sales, pipeline, et cetera. And so one
thought I have is,
can we find a way to get that information out to the world? Because I suspect
many people are
interested in figuring out how can this tool help me do the thing I really care
about, which is
pipeline sales, getting my research studies done better faster. And so, you
know, there's
probably there's some areas that we're kind of playing around with, everything
to thinking about
like how the type of incentive you offer matters in terms of driving either
pipeline or sales.
We're also trying to figure out like, what are the things that create a better
experience for
your recipients? So they're more likely to buy your product, et cetera. But
those are the types
of things that we're going around with. What about a, your, your cuttable
budget item or something
that you're not investing in or not working or is fading away?
I wouldn't call it fading away, but I did, we had a PR agency, a retainer, I
did cut that.
And here's why it's not because I don't think PR has any value, but it turns
out,
if you haven't nailed your story, if you haven't figured out what, you know,
content areas you
want to own, what stories you want to tell, it's not a good investment. And so
for now,
I'm like, no PR, if, you know, we're about to launch a really exciting feature
around fraud,
we might try to do something there. And so they've agreed to work with us on a
one-off basis.
But I'm not going to reinvest there until we figured out our story, until we
figure out like,
what are those areas of thought leadership that we want to own that we have
something
critical to say, until we build out our library of case studies.
Love it. Yeah, that's great. You mentioned the website and you know, you're
investing in it.
How do you view the website? How are you thinking about the long-term
investment in the website?
It's hypercritical because I'm making some big bets from an organic and paid
perspective to get
people to my website. So I definitely need to make sure that my site is
optimized to convert.
So it is a huge priority. I have a roadmap of things that I'm working on from
experiments
that we're trying to stand up to, as I mentioned earlier, just filling in some
of those big content
gaps, especially around products. But it is, it is the, I hate to say it, but
it's like the one of
the most critical investments because a lot of people do their research. They
don't necessarily
want to talk to your sales team. And even if they do talk to your sales team,
they do a ton of
research before they get there. And so if you're not providing enough
information to educate and
engage potential customers, you're going to lose out.
Couldn't agree more. Critical, critical website. You know, one thing that I
wanted to mention
as we were talking on kind of a budget items, obviously here, as we've been
talking about it
all day, is the idea of gifting and doing, you know, really interesting types
of engagements
were awards. And one of the stories that back in the day, Jason, what I told on
this story,
on this very podcast, was about how they did a $100 gift card for demos to
their like ICP.
And he said there's the best campaign that he ever did was doing that. And I
know that, you know,
and he said that they, they messed with like the how many dollars and how much,
how much to give and how to give it and who to ask and all these, all these
crazy things. But
yeah, they did that campaign. It was the best thing ever. And you know, I think
this was years
ago. So I don't know if they used tremendous or not, but, but I think that it's
important to
sort of talk about this idea of like, there is a very clear marketing, you know
, use case for
product like tremendous, to engage prospects and to get them to demo and to get
them to do things
like that. And we've we've heard it here firsthand on this podcast.
Yes. And we actually use our product to incentivize people to take a demo with
us.
We actually found something interesting because we also did a test,
a small test with different dollar amounts, zero, $50 and 100. And actually $50
worked better than
100 because we found that I think it was like deals went up like leads went up
three or four times
deals, which is our version of sales qualified opportunities were also up. So
it was high quality
pipeline. And it was at half the cost per lead. And $50 actually worked better
than 100. So 100,
we had lower leads and deals and a higher cost per lead. And we think it's
potentially because
if you spend, if you offer too much, people just take the money, just they don
't care about your
product, but they just sit in the meeting to get the money. But if it's a
low enough, it incentivizes the people who might have an interest and it might
be worth their time
to actually spend some time with you. And this is hyper critical for smaller
companies,
of course, because you don't have the name brand net recognition. But yeah, we
we've seen the same
sort of results in using incentives in our own marketing efforts. So it can be
a pretty powerful
tool. Yeah, another thing that he said that I remember when we were talking
about on that
episode is that basically the flash to bang or whatever you want to call it was
really long,
where they had a bunch of people that came on and did these. And then a bunch
of them didn't buy.
And someone was like, Oh, that didn't work out at all. And then next sales
cycle, they close all
these deals. And they're like, where did all these deals come from? And it
turns out they were all
the people that demoed the product like eight months earlier, but weren't weren
't actually ready
to buy them anyways. And I just think there's so much value in getting someone
demoing your product
for real, you know, not trying to just take the money. But if you're asking the
right person
anyways, I mean, how many times do I don't know if you've ever got roped into
like a,
like a time share conversation, anything like that, where something that you're
like, I would
never do this in a million years. And then you get it and sit in the pitch and
you're like,
well, actually, I mean, this does make a lot of sense. You know, so I just
think that there's such
something very human about that thing that, you know, then you realize, Oh,
actually, this is,
this probably would be a good thing for me to, for me to have, or at a minimum,
it's a nice to have,
right? And at least people know that your product is nice to have.
Yeah. And one thing I should mention, I probably wouldn't use the incentives on
every channel. We
typically use it on LinkedIn, where you're targeting people, at least for us,
our target ICP.
Um, people who are, you know, operating in businesses. Um, so that's going to
increase the
likelihood that when you get that call, it's someone who actually has the
potential to use your products.
Yeah, we've done it, um, with called email outreach to the literal people that
we know would
buy our stuff, right? So it's like, yeah, to the exact person who is the buyer
at our ICP type
company. Um, but yeah, I get it all the time. When I get outreach on LinkedIn,
pretty,
pretty regularly and, uh, for people that, you know, of a, you know, whatever
CEO of a company,
you know, 25 to whenever 50 people or whatever. And so I get, I, if you all the
time, you know,
saying, Hey, do you want a hundred bucks to do this thing? Um, and you know,
like I, I am in the
proverbial industry here. So I am, I just don't need those products and
services, but it,
but the funny thing is it does make you stop and look at it for a second and be
like, okay,
am I going to, am I going to try to buy this product anyway, someday? Uh, and
should I take a hundred
bucks? Um, but yeah, it's just a great, uh, it's a great way to open the door
offering people money
turns out always a good way, a good foot in the door, but any other thoughts on
tactics or other
things or things you're experimenting or things, you know, with your 10%
experimental budget that
you want to be investing in, uh, or any other, uh, any other playbook, playbook
isms here.
Well, so for me, because I have so many potential ICPs and use cases, I kind of
have tuned them.
So the tier ones are the ones I'm going after full force. So when I think about
experimentation,
it's how do I test to see if we can get any traction with those tiered to, um,
ICP. So
nonprofit, um, is an area where we actually get a number of folks using our
products, but we're
not quite sure about the profitability. We're not quite sure about what use
cases make the most sense.
Um, so as I think about experimentation, literally talking to one of my PMMs
about this,
we think we might run a campaign, um, in the next half targeting nonprofits to
see if we can get
them to use our, our products. Um, but it's something she literally said, I
want to experiment now. I
was like, no, experimentation is for after we get the basics done. Let's come
back to that in the
second half. Yeah, right. But that's how I think about experimentation. It's
probably going to be,
like, um, running some, you know, paid campaigns on LinkedIn, hyper targeted at
nonprofits. That's
probably what we'll start. Very cool. All right. Let's get to our next segment.
The desktop,
we talked about healthy tension, whether that's with your board, your sales
teams, your competitors,
or anyone else. Do you have, have you ever had a desktop in your career? I
wonder if anyone ever
answers that question with no, I suspect they don't. So yes, I have. Um, I, so
most of my background
is in product marketing. And so I've often been caught between sales and
product. Those two
oars tend to be very much at odds. And I would classify it as a healthy tension
, although it
can sometimes come to blows. But typically the conversation goes something like
this. Sales has
this customer. They're trying to close. They need XYZ feature or they can't do
it. So they're mad
because they're like product you have built an unsellable product and then
product and
evidently turns around and says, you can't sell. Um, and so as a product market
er in the middle of
this, um, no win kind of discussion, I often try to, um, reframe the discussion
to be more productive
and business value based. Um, and so I'll often try to figure out, okay, sales,
you're saying you
need product to build these features. Why? What unmet need does that solve? And
then I'll try to,
try to think about, okay, well, if we address these unmet needs, does this help
us to capture a
larger share of the market, go after our ICP? And then ultimately, if I think
there is a case,
I'll build a business case, then I would often, you know, have a discussion
with sales and products
in the room where we talk about the business case. And I found that that's been
a good way to
diffuse that tension between product and sales. Um, but luckily being at a
startup,
I'm not seeing a lot of that. So I'm not caught in the middle of that,
thankfully.
Okay. Let's get to our final segment. Quick kids. These are quick questions and
quick answers,
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to learn more qualified is that they're the best. And we love them dearly. So
go to qualified.com
to check them out. Quickets. Dana, are you ready? Yes. You don't sound sure,
but I know you are.
Number one, what's a hidden talent or skill that's not on your resume?
So I have a black belt in Taekwondo. Um, and I, if you know me and knew me
actually back
before I got this, I was, I'm not the most athletic person, but I,
I took Taekwondo like in college and I committed to it for four years and I got
a black belt.
So that's my hidden skill or talent, I guess. That's a great one. I don't know
how many black
belts we've had on the show. That would be a great day because it's not on the
resume. It's just like
yours. Maybe it may be something to have it. Um, okay. What's a favorite book
podcast or TV show
that you'd recommend? Um, I'm assuming you mean business books. So I have a lot
of fun,
poor fun books, but I'll focus on the business. So there's actually two books
that someone recommended
at my last company that's just been so amazing. One is called How Women Rise.
It's by the author
of what got you here won't get you there. And it just debunks this myth that
some women aren't
executive material. It's usually, there's a lot of bad habits that they've
formed over the years
that are getting in the way and it just helps you identify them and get rid of
them. Um,
and then there's one other book, Playing to Win, How Strategy Really Works. And
it's
really just about the idea of going back to basics, understanding what strategy
is, which is making
choices. Um, and as someone in tech where strategy has been uneven at best, I
think that, um, it was
really kind of refreshing me to read this book and remind myself, okay, I've
actually got to make
choices as a leader in my new role at tremendous. Um, so those are the two that
I've found a lot of
inspiration from recently. Do you have a favorite non marketing hobby that
indirectly makes you a
better marketer? Yes. I don't know if it's a hobby, but I have gotten really
into like a lot of people
mindfulness. Um, so I every day I work out in the morning and I actually
started meditating
and doing yoga at night. And it's been transformative because I find that I'm
less reactive. I'm able
to be more focused and present with the one thing I'm doing. And I feel like it
's making me more
productive. If you weren't in marketing or business at all, what do you think
you'd be doing?
Well, my favorite thing to do is read. So if I'm not working or being a parent,
I have two kids,
I'm reading and I once thought, you know, I wish someone would just pay me to
read all day. And
then I realized there was actually a job where people get paid to read all day.
Um, if there is,
um, I would be a audible book narrator. So I could get paid to read all day.
I was, I thought you were going to make a joke and say that that's a, that's a,
uh,
VP of marketing. Because I feel like you don't get paid to read all day, but I
feel like the best
ones probably do read quite a bit. I never quite thought about it that way. So
I am in my dream job.
That's funny. Okay. So last question here. Uh, what is your
best piece of advice for a first time VPN marketing trying to figure out all
this marketing strategy
stuff? Oh, wow. Um, so I'm talking to myself, basically. Um, okay. Uh, one is
to find your
ICP. You can't go after everyone. So pick who you're going to go after. The
second thing that I've
really been learning real time is you can't fix every problem. You can't fill
every gap. So you
actually have to just pick the one, two, three things that you're really going
to focus on.
And then the third thing is making sure that you, um, set clear expectations
with your boss.
I'm not a magical purple unicorn who's going to come in and fix everything all
at once,
but I am going to fix these three things that I've decided to focus on. So that
would be my advice.
I love it. Dan, it is been wonderful chatting with you today. Thanks so much,
uh, for being on
the show for your time for listeners. Go check out tremendous. I mean, there's
truly no downside.
You should just, if you're giving a single gift in 2024 to anyone, uh, your
company should be using
tremendous, go to tremendous.com. Uh, did any final thoughts anything to plug?
No, thank you.
This has been really fun. Yeah. So awesome. Have any other show and we'll talk
again soon.